The state of officiating in Canada with FIBA referee Jayson Stiell

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. Welcome to the Canadian Basketball show, your go to spot for the latest news stories and analysis on Canadian basketball. I'm your host, Lee Ben Osman. If you listen to this podcast, you've heard me talk about officiating in Canada, my issues with it, my. My qualms. And today I'm joined by one to hear firsthand the life of an official. He's called fuba. America's qualifiers called a game that former US President Barack Obama was in the house for. And he's currently in Toronto calling the CBL championship. He's one of the few FIBA certified referees from Canada. Welcome to the show with Jason Steele. How you doing, brother? [00:00:46] Speaker B: I'm doing good. Thank you very, very much for having me. Pleasure to be here. [00:00:50] Speaker A: I don't think I told you this, but the idea for this podcast, I've been wanting to have a ref, you know, on just to like, hear their side of things. But I saw you, I don't think you saw me in April at the Nike Hoop Summit. [00:01:04] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:01:05] Speaker A: And you were officiating that game. And I'm like, where do I know this brother? [00:01:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:01:10] Speaker A: And I look closely like he's. He's Canadian. [00:01:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:01:13] Speaker A: You know, and you're calling that game night Coop Summit, obviously, the world versus USA Basketball, One of my favorite events of the year. And that's when I was like, I need to get him on the podcast because I've been dying, like I said, to have a conversation about officiating Canada, obviously. I did kind of my research on the stuff that you've done before, and I have a bunch of questions when it comes to the state of officiating in Canada, the behind the scenes, what the life is really like, and like, how do you become a FIBA certified referee? How does that work, all that kind of stuff. But for you, you've been in the business for a while. [00:01:46] Speaker B: Yep. [00:01:46] Speaker A: When did it hit you I want to get into officiating? [00:01:50] Speaker B: Well, I have been reffing a while. It's been 22, 23 years now. I've been officiating. I started reffing when I was much younger, still an active player, and was playing and then game after me, they didn't have referees. So they asked, hey, do you mind refereeing the game? So I said, sure. Didn't have any idea what was going on, what I was doing, but said, sure. So jumped on, refereed the game. And then they asked me, hey, do you want to come back next week and ref again? And it was kids, little, little kids. And I said, sure. I got paid 20 bucks for the game. That was. Oh, okay, cool. That was great. [00:02:34] Speaker A: That was big time. [00:02:35] Speaker B: Yeah. That was like, hey, all right. They didn't know I get paid for this, but sure. So that was cool. And then found out that there was a local referee association like that that does this seriously and stuff like that. So kind of went about informing myself about that, started refereeing with the local association. And at the time, the president of the local association was a guy by the name of Mike Holmes. And Mike was a FIBA carded referee and had been to the Olympics. And I took a liking to him and I was like, okay, that's what I want to do. That's my goal. I want to get my FIBA license and I want to get to the Olympics. So the journey started. [00:03:24] Speaker A: How quick did that, like, all hit you? Like, hey, this is more than something you can do on the side. [00:03:30] Speaker B: Yeah. Took a while. Like, I was just doing it for a pastime, doing it for fun. And then eventually you realize, oh, yeah, this, this can be like, serious. Like you can take this seriously and you can, you can move up the ranks. I think what attracted me to officiating was the challenge. It's a challenge. Every game, every play, every possession, it's a challenge. And you're striving to be the best. You're striving to get the call right, you're striving to get the play right. So that constant challenge is what kind of kept me engaged and in tuned and stuff like that. [00:04:10] Speaker A: Was there a moment where you realized, I'm actually. I might be good at this? Yeah. [00:04:17] Speaker B: I mean, quickly I went from refereeing little kids to within like a year or two, ref and men's league. And that was like, that was. That was a challenge. Of course, it was different. And I was still very young. I was refereeing guys older than me, like, not twice my age, but, you know, a good 10, 15 years older than me at the time. And you're learning how to manage and deal with people and deal with emotions and personalities. Definitely wasn't doing it right because I was so young and had so much growing up to do, but it definitely helped me along the way. So. Yeah, yeah. [00:04:54] Speaker A: How did you develop, like, what was like, obviously the rule book. You got to learn the rulebook, gotta learn all the rules, all that kind of stuff. But was there something else you did? [00:05:01] Speaker B: Yeah, I watched a lot of basketball and I still do to this day. I watch games online. It's much easier now because everything's online so I can watch Stuff online. [00:05:15] Speaker A: Synergy. [00:05:16] Speaker B: But yeah, synergy, YouTube, you name it. You can watch games. But when I was younger, I used to just be in gyms, just be in gyms watching basketball. Whether it was CJEP games, college games or university games, Thursday night, whatever, after school, after class, whatever, boom, I'm going and I'm watching games. I'm watching the guys that are the veterans and I'm watching how they do it. And I'm taking the good, I'm taking the bad. I'm learning and just constantly watching, watching games. [00:05:47] Speaker A: What does it take? Like, you talked about going from being a local ref, right? [00:05:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:05:51] Speaker A: To now FIBA certified, you're calling games. I think you called a game. Argentina was in. [00:05:57] Speaker B: Yeah, Argentina, Uruguay, last, the last window, which was quite the experience. [00:06:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:05] Speaker B: But yeah, you got to get in with your local association. And then there's much more of a structure now. Canada Basketball and cboc. The Canadian Basketball Officials Commission has done a great job in creating a pathway for officials that want to move up the rankings, that want to get their FIBA license, that want to get to youth sport nationals, whatever the case may be. They've done a great job in creating that pathway. So there's more structure to it now. But, but I'm a bit of the old school. As I said. I've been reffing for 20 something years. So when I started, my goal was always to just be the best I can be. And then within that, the doors will open. And if they do, they do. If they don't, they don't. But the goal is always to just be the best you can be and in that, strive for excellence. You know, the door opened for me to get my, my FIBA license. [00:06:57] Speaker A: Is there like a testing process where you like, they evaluate you, where it's [00:07:00] Speaker B: like, okay, yeah, so when I Got FIBA certified, 2014, it was a weekend tournament at McGill University. There was a bunch of referees there getting certified and some others getting recertified. It was a three day clinic slash course. We had to run the beep test. [00:07:17] Speaker A: Oh, wow. [00:07:18] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, you had to run. [00:07:20] Speaker A: I haven't run the beep tested. [00:07:21] Speaker B: Yeah, we had to run the beep test. Get it? 86. [00:07:24] Speaker A: 86, yeah. [00:07:25] Speaker B: So it's not. You're, you're running for nine minutes, about nine and a half minutes. There was an English test, of course, because FIBA is worldwide. And. And then there was a written rules test, 25 questions. And then the head of FIBA was there and he watched you referee a game. And based on those criterias, you found out In a few days or whatnot, if you got your FIBA license or [00:07:47] Speaker A: not, How'd you grade? Like, do you know what you got? [00:07:49] Speaker B: Or like, I don't know what I got. [00:07:51] Speaker A: As you pass. [00:07:53] Speaker B: So here's. We were told. We were told after the clinic or on the Sunday of the clinic. We were told we would find out within a month if we got our FIBA license or not. And I remember the Tuesday right after. So two days after, somebody called me and said, hey, check the FIBA website, Referee, FIBA website. And I went online and there was my name and my license number. And yeah, I actually, I was. I'll never forget, I was at work at the school I worked at, and I went into my principal's office. I said, hey, I need to take a minute, and I went outside. I called my parents and got emotional, of course, because it was, hey, this was your goal, and now you achieve it. So it was a pretty. Pretty cool moment. [00:08:40] Speaker A: I was gonna ask what did it mean, like, during that time? Like, realizing you're probably one of the few, right? [00:08:45] Speaker B: Yeah. So there was, at the time, there was three of us from Quebec that got it. And I think just in overall, there was maybe eight or nine referees out of 20 something that were there that got their. Their license at that time. Yeah. [00:09:00] Speaker A: Yeah. Do you remember your first game? [00:09:03] Speaker B: I remember my first tournament. It was in Colorado Springs in 2019. So imagine I got my feeble license in 2014. I didn't get my first, we call it, nomination until 2019. [00:09:16] Speaker A: Why is that? [00:09:17] Speaker B: Just at the time, basketball wasn't what it is today with all the opportunities and all the games and the tournaments and the. All that kind of stuff. So I got my first tournament in 2019 in Colorado Springs. It was an under 19 girls tournament. I refereed Don Staley. She was coaching the USA women's under 19 team at that time. And that was my first tournament. First time traveling, first time traveling for basketball. [00:09:46] Speaker A: I don't think people realize too, you got to be, like, in top shape. You talked about the beep test. [00:09:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:50] Speaker A: I don't want to gas you up, but it looks like, you know, you [00:09:53] Speaker B: lift, so you're in the gym. So in this day and age, we've, you know, we're refereeing the top athletes. If you're not in physical condition to do that, number one, you risk injury. Number two, it may affect your play calling, and number three, it may affect your mentality, your fatigue and all that stuff. So, yeah, we definitely in tip top shape. I work out five days a week. If it's not weights, it's strength and mobility. If it's not that, it's. It's cardio. But I work out five days a week and I combine that, of course, with officiating. When we referee a basketball game, like for instance, the cbl. CBL game referees run six to seven kilometers. [00:10:42] Speaker A: Wow. [00:10:42] Speaker B: Yeah. Six to seven kilometers in that. In that two. Two hours spanned of stop and go, stop and go, change direction. Of course it's not the same as playing, but you're. You're getting up and down. You're getting up and down. [00:10:54] Speaker A: I haven't run 6-7km and I don't know how long. So I can't imagine talking about, like how physically demanding the job is too. Before the pod started, we were talking about how you've been traveling. Yeah, all over. What does that look like? Place to place, hotel to hotel. [00:11:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:12] Speaker A: I'm guessing sometimes you miss your bed. [00:11:14] Speaker B: Man. Do I ever? Do I ever. We were talking and I've spent more time all summer. I've spent more time on the road than I have in my own bed. Definitely the longest I've been home, I think. And we're going back to May. May, June. The longest I've been home is maybe 10 days. Last week I was, I was, I was in Brampton for game one. From Brampton. Went to Winnipeg. [00:11:44] Speaker A: Cbl. [00:11:45] Speaker B: Yeah, for cbl. Got home Saturday and Tuesday. I was back on the road to come back here for the Eastern Conference. Sorry. For the championship series finals, Game one. So there's that. There's some other games that are coming up that I've got. Monday there was a youth sport exhibition game. Concordia University played a NCAA Division 1 team. So I got home Saturday. I ref that game Monday, Tuesday morning, first flight out here to Toronto. Got in yesterday. Working today. Got somewhat of a day off tomorrow and then Friday's another travel day. [00:12:19] Speaker A: No stop. [00:12:20] Speaker B: No stop. Yeah. [00:12:21] Speaker A: How would you describe your life? You probably get to see cool stuff, to travel the world. [00:12:26] Speaker B: Oh, it's amazing. I'm. I'm tired, physically exhausted. However, wouldn't change it for the world. I'm grateful for the opportunities, appreciative for the opportunities. And yeah, I have those, those, those pinch you moments where you're in a country and you say to yourself, I can't believe I'm here. Like I've had times where I've gotten picked up at the airport by the. Whoever's picking us up and I'm in a, in a van or in a car and, and I get Emotional because it's like never in my wildest dreams did I. Did I think I would be in this country and, or there's countries that I got, oh, I want to visit this place and I'm thinking I want to go for vacation. And then next thing you know, I get a, an assignment and I'm. And I'm. And I'm there. So, so yeah, it's, it's, it's really cool. People, people underestimate the travel. The travel is, it's murder. [00:13:24] Speaker A: I was on a two week trip from what, Vegas to Augusta, Georgia, just like covering what eybl NBA Summer League. And I was exhausted. I didn't have to run 6, 7 km a game. So I can't imagine, like I got to lay in my bed, you know, sleep properly. Most times it's like relax. Yeah, that's watch basketball instead of officiating. [00:13:44] Speaker B: Traveling people don't realize to sleep is tough. Sometimes you're traveling different time zones, then you got to be mindful of what you're eating. You don't want to be eating stuff that'll, that'll upset your stomach or whatever the case may be. So you got to be mindful of what you're eating. But most importantly, I think it's the rest people, you know, sleeping in your own bed, getting a good seven hours. If I get six hours of sleep, I'm happy. [00:14:09] Speaker A: Oh really? [00:14:09] Speaker B: I'm happy if I get six hours of sleep. You know, the game tonight. The games at 7 will be done by 9:30. By the time we do our post game evaluation, get showered up and stuff like that. We're talking about 10 o', clock, 10:15. I still haven't eaten. Got to go eat and then get back to the hotel room hopefully by 12, 12:30. Then I've got a game report I got to fill out and I got to send into the league and all that stuff. And then if I was traveling tomorrow, boom, all that and then first flight out tomorrow morning. Right. [00:14:40] Speaker A: So you talk about game report. This is where I want to get into the nitty gritty of stuff. Yeah. Because I don't think people realize like how much preparation goes into a game. Yeah. What does that look like for you when you're. We're talking about the CBO championships. Right. How do you go into preparing for a game like this? And yeah, just how does it look like for you when you come into that? Fans like don't ever see. [00:15:01] Speaker B: No. So. So I'm a pretty, I don't want to say disciplined, but Regimented person. So got my, got some good sleep last night. Got up this morning, had a coffee, went to the gym, did an activation, got to get the hips and, and hamstrings and all that stuff loose in preparation for the game today. Not, not eat too much, not eat anything that's going to have me feeling sluggish or whatnot. Then of course I'm going to go back and watch some clips and some game tapes from previous reports and stuff like that, kind of scout the teams. You know, teams do scouting. Well, we do scouting as well. 1000% do scouting. [00:15:38] Speaker A: What does that look like? Do you know the players tendencies? Like what is that? [00:15:42] Speaker B: So we know some players tendencies, we look at stats, we look stats, you know, how many fouls does a team average, you know, over the course of the season? Now we're not trying to let that bias us, but we're definitely trying to prepare ourselves for the game. What kind of offense do the teams run? Style of play, you know, contrasting styles mean, you know things are going to be different in the game. Just a simple example, not necessarily pertaining to tonight, but you know, you have one team that's a run and gun style and then you got one team that wants to sit back in a zone. Well, that's going to change the dynamics of the game. That's going to change the defensive schemes, that's going to change, you know, fouls. All that kind of stuff is taken into consideration. So you're definitely looking at all that stuff today during the game. Sorry, today during my, my pregame breakdown, I contact my hey guys, this is what time we got to get to the arena. This kind of thing. We're at the arena an hour and a half before the game, right? Testing today, testing the instant replay system, meeting the scores table and just trying to get a feel for the venue and then get back in the locker room. We do our pre game. So the stuff we discussed earlier, we kind of go over it again and then start our warm up and our activation process for the game today. [00:17:03] Speaker A: I find this so fascinating because like, you know, you're giving us inside look to what? No one really hears this stuff? No, no, because we just think, okay, they pull up to the game, you make a few bad calls and that's, you know, but it's a method, you know. [00:17:16] Speaker B: Absolutely. People think, literally people think, oh, these guys show up 20 minutes before the game dressed with their shoes in their hand and then they come out in referee. No, we are dealing with professionals. So we got to know players, we got to Know coaches and like I said, no tendencies. Know this and try to prepare ourselves the best way possible to service the game. We are there to service the game and have the best team win. We don't care who wins. We want the best team to win. We want them to put on a good show. And. And that's it. [00:17:48] Speaker A: I put my hand up as, like, I'm saying people don't understand. I don't understand at times right, where, you know, like, we can get on officials. I feel like, too much. And we'll discuss that, too. Um, but I feel like this podcast, the reason why I wanted you on, is to show that and discuss the insights to everything. You know, how much talk about communication with referees prior to the game. What does that look like in terms of, like, okay, I don't know if you guys assigned roles, but, like, what is it? What does it look like? Where. Okay, there's usually a point person. Am I correct? [00:18:17] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So there's usually a crew chief that. That. That. That kind of leads the pregame. But for me, like, it's an open. It's an open conversation. I mean, I'm working with three, two other referees. To me, we're all crew chiefs. Yeah, I may have the title, but we're all working together because I'm only as good as my weakest link. So if I can build up my partners and the same thing, they're only as good as, you know, so if we can work together, we are trying to be one unit out there. So the conversation being honest. The conversation starts off with social stuff. Hey, how was your day? How was your. Because, you know, referee shows up to the game. Oh, man, I was in a car accident. Oh, man. My wife this. Oh, man. My husband that. Oh, man, my. You know, that plays a role. At the end of the day, we're human. We are human just like everybody else. Just because we're. We're wearing a gray shirt or whatever doesn't mean we don't have stuff going on as well. So you want to check in with everybody, make sure everybody's doing all right socially first, and then we'll get into the nicks and crannies of the game and stuff like that. [00:19:23] Speaker A: What do you feel like is the biggest, like, misconception about referees? [00:19:29] Speaker B: I think the biggest misconception is that. That. That we don't care and that. And that, you know, we. Like I said earlier, we just kind of show up and referee the game, and it's the furthest thing from the truth. I couldn't Tell you how many sleepless nights I've had cuz I had that one call in the game that I, I, what was I thinking? Or how did I make that mistake? Or it hasn't happened often, knock on wood. And hopefully it doesn't happen anytime soon. Or that one call that changes or decides the game. If I'm striving for excellence, if I'm striving for perfection. When you have those mess ups and everybody knows about it and you know about it and it, man, it's a tough, tough pill to swallow. [00:20:20] Speaker A: Yeah. I was going to say how quickly do you know whether you had a good game or a bad game? Like what does, what does that look like? [00:20:25] Speaker B: Immediately, immediately, immediately. There's a lot of outside noise and you definitely do try to kind of block it out. Because everybody has their own agenda. Coaches, players, teams, organizations, whatever the case may be. Their ultimate goal is to win. They don't give a, they don't care about anything else. Their ultimate goal is to win. Our ultimate goal is impartiality or partiality. Sorry, no. Impartiality. [00:20:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:20:54] Speaker B: So yeah, when we make those mistakes, sometimes that noise does get in and it does play on the psyche. But we know immediately when we blow a call or in our post game, you know, we, we break down game tape. You know, I go back and watch every game I referee. I go back and watch if, depending on if the timing, I'll watch certain clips. But nine times out of 10 I go back and watch every game I officiate. And the tape never lies. So in the moment, you may feel good in the moment, maybe this, in the moment, maybe that, but the tape never lies. And I think that's also the biggest misconception. I'm not refereeing for one team or for the other team. I'm refereeing for the videotape because the videotape doesn't lie. So that's point finale. [00:21:49] Speaker A: What makes a good ref in your eyes? [00:21:53] Speaker B: A good official? Someone who works at the craft. I call. I think officiating is an art. At the highest level, I think it's an art. It's a, it's a craft. So someone that works at the craft, someone that's empathetic and someone that, that is self aware, you know, in my opinion, the worst referee is the referee that's never wrong. Right. Because that means there's no, there's no give and take. There's no give and take. And yes, it's a basketball game, but you're dealing with people. It's about dealing with people and relationships and conflict resolution. I think you asked me about, you know, how do I go about being a good referee. I've read books on conflict resolution and managing people and conversing. That has nothing to do with basketball. That have completely, I've incorporated in my style of officiating and I think it's so important. [00:22:55] Speaker A: I was going to ask you how do you describe yourself as a reference because you talked about those, those be empathetic, self aware. How would you describe yourself? [00:23:03] Speaker B: I think I work hard at the art and being someone who, who was a former player. Now I didn't play at no high, high, high level, but being someone that was a former player and, and a coach, I understand that aspect of the game. Right. I've been fortunate enough to play coach and referee. So I've seen the game in all three aspects and I think that has given me a very good understanding of everybody's goal of the game and, and then just now navigating that and communicating through that. [00:23:39] Speaker A: How do you deal with like say a player? Let's give you an example. Right. Player that he knows, complains a lot. [00:23:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:46] Speaker A: How do you go about that? Where it's like, you establish, I don't know, like, okay, this is how we're going to communicate during a game. How do you go about that? Is that pre game chats with coaches but that kind of stuff. What does that look like when it comes to, I think dealing with players or, or that kind of stuff? [00:23:58] Speaker B: Yeah, the crew, the crew, we, we discussed it in, in the pregame. The crew is aware of it, but we got to take the game for what it is. So even though we may have someone who complains a lot, for whatever reason this game, they may decide, you know what, I'm going to lay off the referees or for whatever reason, they may say, you know what, I'm going to go two times harder at the referees. So you got to take the game for what it is and what they give you. But I always, my goal when I interact with a coach or a player is to resolve whatever conflict. We may not agree at the end of the conversation, but when we part ways, when this conversation is over, we're going to have a certain understanding. And that's the goal when you communicate for me, when you communicate with coaches or players that, okay, I hear you, you've made your point. Xyz, let's move on. Let's go here, let's go there. And then at some point, if it, if it continues, you got to Draw a line in the sand and be like, all right, man, it's enough. [00:24:58] Speaker A: I was gonna ask, like, how do you, like, what's the best way for a player? Say, I'm a player. Right. And I'm trying to get my point across to you. [00:25:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:05] Speaker A: Where it's like, what's the best way to communicate with the ref? Because I'm heated in the moment. Right? Yeah. But you also understand there's a lot at stake, right? [00:25:14] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:25:14] Speaker A: For both of us. You know, where it's like, you want to get the call. Right. I want to make sure that if I get fouled, like, you know I got fouled. You know, where you're watching a player's doing this to me that you might not be seeing. What's the best way to communicate that to a ref? [00:25:26] Speaker B: So, of course, I mean, always starting, and most of the guys in the league know us by names, and most leagues, whether it be youth sport or cbl, know us by names or know who we are. So either calling us name or Mr. Official. Hey, can you look for this? Can you look for that? Now, as you said, sometimes emotions play a role in that. And I think as referees, we have to understand that there is emotion in the game. With that understanding, though, you can't berate. You can't be, oh, mf this and F this and. And nword this and whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. That's when. That's when it's like, could be a technical file or that's when we have to address that we understand emotion. So, ah, ref, what was that? We understand that, but it's once again when that line is crossed into being. Yes, you're emotional. Yes, you want to get your point across. But now it becomes disrespectful. That's where we have to draw the line for me. And I think that's what most referees [00:26:26] Speaker A: are instructed to do among you and your. Your crew. [00:26:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:30] Speaker A: How do you handle disagreements? Where it's like, I see the play. I know I see the play this way. He knows he sees the play this way. How do you come to, like, a resolution? [00:26:39] Speaker B: Yeah, it's funny you ask that, because basketball is a game of angles. So me standing in the trail position the furthest away, up by almost not half court, but up that way. And then the referee on the baseline, there may be a play at the basket, but my angle and that referee's angle are completely different. Completely, completely different. So I may see something that I think is a foul. They may see something that they know is not A foul. Right. And then. Then it gets into, okay, whose primary area of coverage is it? Who's been with the play the longest, that kind of stuff. I did want to mention this when we talk about misconceptions, but often people think, oh, the closest referee to the play. Sometimes the closest referee to the play has the worst angle, and it's the referees the furthest away that may have a good angle and vice versa. Right. So it's all about. We called it in referee lingo, open angles and closed angles. And you want to have. You want to be taking decisions on open angles and not closed angles. So that's a huge misconception. People don't understand. Oh, it was right in front of them. Why are you blowing the whistle? Why this? Yeah, we saw it differently. We're looking at the same play, but from two different perspectives. Two different angles. Sometimes three different perspectives. Three different angles. [00:28:01] Speaker A: Is there a call that you make regularly that you're like, you know what people don't like, but if you read the rulebook, this is how it is. [00:28:08] Speaker B: Yeah. Every call I make, every time I blow the whistle, somebody's upset. But no, not, not. Not a. Not a specific call. It's all situational. It's all depends on the game. It depends on the emotions of the game, where we're at in the game. There could be a call that's made that, that. That they don't like because it's that point in time in the game that's. That's. That's all that it is. Yeah. [00:28:36] Speaker A: What I'll tell you is one of my least favorite calls, and it doesn't really have to do with, like a travel. Doesn't have to do with a carry. [00:28:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:44] Speaker A: Um, it's when, say, I dunk the ball. Right. [00:28:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:48] Speaker A: And I let out some emotions. It's the quick tea. [00:28:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:52] Speaker A: It's like, why can't I get myself. [00:28:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:57] Speaker A: More amped, more emotion. Like, show that excitement, get the fans in the game. Like, what are your thoughts on. Because now I feel like a lot of that, especially in the NBA, it's like, you can't taunt. You can't cheer. Like, you can't. [00:29:14] Speaker B: That's. That's the key word there, is taunt. So here, here's the thing. You know, most of the times at the. At the higher levels, we are instructed to allow the players to have some emotion. So dunking the ball and having a reaction, having an emotion is good. But I'm going to give you the other side of it. You dunk the ball, you're winning by 20 points. You dunk the ball. Now you do a chin up, you slap the backboard. [00:29:37] Speaker A: I love it. [00:29:38] Speaker B: And you start gaga, gaga, gaga, all that stuff. But now the enforcer and the other team is like, oh, yeah, that's what you're going to do while we're down 20. [00:29:45] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:29:46] Speaker B: And when you come down the floor now, he pops you, right? Because the referees haven't dealt with it, the referees haven't addressed it, the referees haven't given a technical foul. He just. And now we have a melee on our hand or we have whatever, you know what I mean? So there's always two sides to it. And I am not here to defend all referees and say that all referees are perfect and great in this. Sometimes we make mistakes, sometimes we do. Do, we do give a quick tee. Sometimes there is that situation where the guy hangs on the rim, doesn't slap the backboard, doesn't whatever, whatever. And for whatever reason, the ref mentally decides to react and has an O and boom, gives a technical foul. It happens. We, we, we, we, we, we get emotional. We do, we react to stuff. We, we, we make mistakes. It does happen. So it, it can happen where someone gets a tea that's not necessarily deserved, but sometimes they get a tea that is deserved. [00:30:43] Speaker A: You know, in basketball, there's this saying, the makeup call. [00:30:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:47] Speaker A: How much do you, as a referee, do you see it as that or do you see it as like, I'm just making a call. [00:30:53] Speaker B: So the makeup call existed. And I could, I, I'm proud to say I don't think it's a thing anymore at the higher levels. And this goes back to the tape. Coach A and coach B, they watch game Phil Game film. If we get an incorrect call here and then we go down at the other end and have a makeup call that's a phantom or not. When that coach is breaking down that game tape and sees that makeup call, that referee has now lost his credibility. You know what I mean? [00:31:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:31:27] Speaker B: So maybe at the lower levels where games are not being filmed, but everything's being filmed now. Everything is being filmed now. I don't want to say it never happens, but definitely at the highest levels, there's no makeup calls because we have, we have to answer for it. It's there on video. So we have to answer for it from the coaches, we have to answer from it from our referee evaluators or referee coaches that are there. So if I'm out there having makeup calls and then, okay, we miss one down here. We have a makeup call down here. Well, now we're expected to have a makeup, and now we get into a game of just makeup calls. Makeup. And now everybody's just looking like. So I don't think it's as prominent as. As people think. [00:32:12] Speaker A: I think I'm watching too much high school basketball, maybe prep school. You know, that's probably. I see too much makeup calls. How much do you consider flow to game, too? When it's like, okay, we're seeing. Obviously you're going to make. You're trying to make the call, but it's like, okay, both teams are playing aggressive. Yeah, we're going to let them play aggressive. [00:32:28] Speaker B: This is. [00:32:28] Speaker A: This is the style that they. This is both teams, they're doing it. You might see, you know, like, you might let them throw an elbow. You might know, like, how much do you consider flow of the game where two teams are playing aggressive? Where you also don't want to, like, have a million foul calls because you could call a foul maybe on every single play. [00:32:45] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So there's. There's two. There's two aspects to that or many aspects to that, I should say, depending on the level of play. Right. So if the guys are talented enough that they can play through some physicality, you can let plays, you know, develop and let, you know some stuff. I don't want to say let it go, but play through some stuff. There's a difference between aggressive and illegal. And we want to get illegal contact. We don't want to get aggressive contact. And then if it does become too aggressive, man, we start hitting the whistle the funny. And we say this, we start blowing the whistle, calling fouls, the players are going to adjust. Right. If you come in and you get two quick fouls and, you know, you got to go back and sit down when you come back in the game, I'm not putting. [00:33:29] Speaker A: I'm not doing nothing. [00:33:30] Speaker B: You know what I mean? And I'm not saying we're going out there just calling marginal stuff, but oftentimes, if we come out the gate the right way and we're calling the right stuff, players adjust because they don't want to go sit down. So they're not going to just be out there fouling, fouling, fouling. Yeah, yeah. [00:33:50] Speaker A: You're making a lot of decisions. [00:33:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:51] Speaker A: Like in a split, that can completely change the game. We talked about it. Yeah. How do you deal with that pressure? You talk about, like, sleepless nights at times. How do you deal with that where it's like, you know, I see it more on the high school scene and like I said, we're gonna talk about it. [00:34:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:04] Speaker A: Where I've seen championship games cost because an official made a call that I'm like, that shouldn't be a call. [00:34:11] Speaker B: Yep. [00:34:12] Speaker A: You know, how do you deal with that pressure where it's like you have a lot of power, where you know, if you call something a certain way, it could lead to a team winning or not? [00:34:23] Speaker B: Yeah, I think, I think you, you always rely on your training. So, so if, if you, if you are fundamentally sound in your training and in the right position at the right time, oftentimes you'll make the right decision. So when you're, when, when you rely on your training, all that extra noise doesn't. Doesn't. I don't even hear it. I don't even hear it. So, yeah, you got to rely on your training and then just hope that that carries you through the game and the journey and understanding the stakes of what's going on and that. [00:35:00] Speaker A: How do you block out that noise too? Because, you know, games are what you got maybe thousands of people screaming at you. [00:35:05] Speaker B: Yeah. We go back when that, the, that last FIBO window I officiated, I went to Uruguay. We did Argentina versus Uruguay in Uruguay. My first time ever in Uruguay. That's a, that's a rivalry. [00:35:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:35:21] Speaker B: Those two countries, like in every sport, soccer, blah, blah, blah, each other just can't. So they have a new arena in Uruguay. First time going to the country. They have a new arena in Uruguay. Holds 11,000 people. There was 11,001 people in that arena for that game. Was. Was bonkers. Was bonkers. So you get to the arena, I take a video. Yeah, you take it in. But once the game starts, I'm in game mode. So all the bad words that they be calling us and stuff like that, either I don't understand it or I'm just not paying attention to it. And then the same thing after Uruguay went to the Dominican Republic and they're passionate about their basketball, they have a brand new state of the art arena, 10,000 people. It was packed. It was packed. But you got to block it out because if you let your mind wander, then you're not refereeing the game. [00:36:15] Speaker A: Yeah, because I think about when I was at the NIH Summit game. I was sitting like scores table. They gave me immediate seat there and there was maybe like, I don't know if you remember, like there was some, like, it wasn't packed. It wasn't like 10,000. [00:36:30] Speaker B: Like you're talking about but there was [00:36:31] Speaker A: some like 20 fans just yelling at you guys. [00:36:34] Speaker B: We went to the, we went to the monitor to look at something and I'll never forget as I'm walking to the monitor, this guy stands up, it's got a USA shirt on, and he points and you mf and, and so you see it, you laugh and then you, you go about your business. But yeah, it happens, man, it happens. [00:36:51] Speaker A: Has anybody like ever tried to outside of a game? [00:36:54] Speaker B: No. [00:36:55] Speaker A: What's the protection level like when it comes to that kind of stuff? [00:36:57] Speaker B: You man. In the Dominican Republic, they, they picked us up at the hotel in our transport. We got a police escort also. [00:37:07] Speaker A: They can't touch you. [00:37:08] Speaker B: They got it. We got a police escort to the arena. We showed up to the entrance and I'm getting my bags, getting ready. They're like, no, no, hold on, hold on. They turn the van around and they back the van up literally to the door. So when we didn't even see outside, we walked from the van through the threshold of the door. We walked into the arena. We got surrounded by four guards with earpieces, sunglasses, the works. When we walked out to the court, there was a whole slew of security. In Latin America stuff happens. So they take care of us. In the cbl, we have a security detail that takes us to and from the court and stuff like that. In the States where a referee, same thing to and from the court. And in the States they, even after the game, they walk you to your car. Security walks you to your car. Yeah. So it's. Yeah, it, it, it's serious. [00:38:01] Speaker A: They treat you like you're. What? [00:38:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:38:03] Speaker A: VIP president. [00:38:04] Speaker B: Sometimes, Most of the time. Sometimes we don't. But most of the time, yeah. [00:38:09] Speaker A: Talking about president escorts Barack Obama. [00:38:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:38:12] Speaker A: He pulled up July 10, 2024 exhibition game, USA Canada. It was a tune up game before the Olympics. I was there in attendance, exciting game. USA ended up winning. But many people don't know you called that game. [00:38:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:38:29] Speaker A: Tell me about getting the assignment. When did you realize I am about to ref. Canada vs. USA stars. LeBron, Steph, Katy, Shay, Dylan, Jamal. Yeah. How did you get emotional just thinking about it? [00:38:45] Speaker B: Yeah. Got the call to work the game and working. I was working the game with Josh Wilson and Matt Myers. Shout out Matt Myers. Matt's an NBA referee. He's a feeble referee, but also refs in the NBA. And was, was real cool. I had refereed that whole week leading up to that game. I had refereed Team USA and Canada. When they arrived, we'd refereed their training camps. So that was special in and itself. But if I'm being honest, okay, yes, all that is going on, but you rely on your training and it's just another basketball game. That's how I was looking at it. And then you get to the arena. Yeah, okay, this is cool, all that stuff. It's not until we got out onto the floor right before the start of the game and the arena is packed and it's a who's who of basketball hall of Famers, who's who of basketball at this game. And you're looking around and you're like, oh, my God. Right? And so you're like, okay, all right. And then the game is about to start. We're about to toss the ball up. Matt was the crew chief, but was fortunate nice enough to let me toss the ball up. And what that mean for you? Yeah, that was highlight of my career. Maybe Canada, usa. I mean, the best of the best. Never in my wildest dreams, when I started refereeing, however many did I think that that was going to be a thing. The game is about to start. We just before the jump ball, passing the ball to the players for them to test out the ball. LeBron takes the ball and I have the video. Somebody sent it to me. LeBron's testing the ball, testing the ball. I'm standing at half court like this. He walks by, dribbling the ball, dribbling the ball, and without even turning back, he whips a bounce back, back door bounce pass right at me. And didn't look nothing. Right on the target, everything. I was like, what the hell? I saw it afterwards when my friend sent me the video. Um. But I can honestly say, and I shouldn't say, but I can honestly say for the first five, eight minutes of that game, I was starstruck. I was like, as you should be. I was like, wait a second, there's Devin Booker. Wait a second. Joel Embiid is talking to me like. Like, oh, there's LeBron complaining like Dylan Dillon Brooks. Just starstruck. Completely starstruck. And so the game starts, the game's going on, and then all of a sudden we have this, like, little pause. And who comes walking courtside? [00:41:34] Speaker A: Did you have any idea? [00:41:35] Speaker B: No. We were never told that he was gonna be in attendance. He wasn't there for training camp. Nothing. Nothing. [00:41:42] Speaker A: Who was? It was. What's her name? Vice President Kamala Harris. She was. I remember, like, going to practice one day and like, they made us wait for how long to. Just because she was entering the Building. Melo, at one point, like, couldn't get into USA practice, so I was at [00:42:00] Speaker B: USA's training camp, so I was in the building when she was coming in. So we had. We were told she was going to be there that day. So there was going to be a pause. There was going to be a. This. All that. Great. We weren't told anything about Obama, so we didn't know nothing at all. So he comes in and he shows up. Of course, everybody goes crazy, this and the other. Then they honor. During the first media timeout, they honor some. Some legends of basketball, Don Staley and all of these people. And then after the timeout, they all go over to him and shake his hand. So we're ready to play. Like, we've got thumbs up from tv. Everybody's ready to play. They're still high five and on the court and stuff like that. So there's the infamous video of me walking over, being like, can we. Can we get back to the basketball game that's going on right now? And everybody laughs about it and whatnot, but a surreal moment. And then, you know, once he's there and whatnot, Matt, being American, he's like, man, I got to get a picture with the U.S. president. [00:43:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:03] Speaker B: He's like, we got to do it. And at halftime, he's like, I'm going to bring my phone out there, and we'll see if we can get a picture. I was like, no, no, Matt, we got this. We're going to. We're going to. We're going to get it. In the third quarter, the ball goes out of bounds right by the president, former president or the president. And there's a media timeout, and it's right in front of him. I'm like, all right, now's our shot. So we walk over and go, excuse me, Mr. President, do you mind taking a picture with us? And he looks up and he tilts his head and he goes, yeah, yeah, sure. Stands up and. And he says, but before we take this picture, we got to talk about some of these calls y' all making, right? So there's a picture of us cracking up, and that's him killing us with jokes. [00:43:52] Speaker A: And. [00:43:53] Speaker B: And then he said, thank you all for doing the game and stuff like that. And he. And we got a cameraman to take a picture, and. And that was it. Yeah. Surreal moment that. That. That highlight of my career, probably. I was. I was so, once again, never thought in my wildest dreams to meet a president. And then of all presidents, that president. So that was Very special. I got to. I got that photo and I gave it to my father and he was like, yeah, very special. [00:44:24] Speaker A: Crazy. What's it like when you're talking to him? Is it like, oh, my God, like, what's the security like? Are you seeing. [00:44:31] Speaker B: Nope, nope. We didn't see. No, there's security there. Yeah, they're somewhere, but we didn't see no security. He had somebody besides him during the game, and he was, He. Listen, man, you. That guy's got. He's got it. [00:44:44] Speaker A: He's got aura. [00:44:45] Speaker B: He's got it. That guy has it. And just from the way he carries himself, from the way he interacts with people, you can see he's got it. So to, to. To. To chat with him for that 30 seconds was, was really cool. And he's easygoing, chill. [00:45:06] Speaker A: Anything funny? He said. [00:45:07] Speaker B: Well, aside from, you know, you know, the dog, you guys. Yeah, but he was, he was super, super cool. Super cool. [00:45:15] Speaker A: You talked about LeBron passing you that ball. Yeah, I know. My guy Abe on the background, he's foaming to the mouth right now because that's this guy. [00:45:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:45:22] Speaker A: When you're, like calling a game like that, what did it mean for you as a Canadian? [00:45:27] Speaker B: Like, it was special. [00:45:28] Speaker A: First time in 24 years this team's about to go play in the Olympics. Yeah. And you're calling the tune up game. [00:45:33] Speaker B: Yeah, it was, it was amazing. Once again, I'm sitting there and I'm taking it in and I'm just like, you know, before the game, they play the Canadian national anthem and they play the American national anthem, and I was very proud to be there. And, And Michael Bartlett, who is in charge, president and CEO of Canada Basketball, he congratulated me on being there. And it was, it was, it was super, super special. Like, just words. Can't put it into. It was just amazing. [00:46:04] Speaker A: Yeah. I want to talk about FIBA officiating in Canada. What are your thoughts on the five fouls? Because I feel like at times, you know, people complain about NBA. There's six, you know. [00:46:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:46:17] Speaker A: How do you, like, how much of that also weighs in where it's like, like, is there certain rules that you enjoy about FIBA that you're like, maybe the NBA should implement? [00:46:27] Speaker B: Um, I'm being a FIBA guy. I love the FIBA rule set, but that's. I have a bias. That's what I grew up on. That's what I know. Don't get me wrong, the NBA has some fantastic rules. And there's definitely, there's definitely rules that I think both can adopt to help the game. But the styles, the style of game in the FIBA world and in the pro NBA world is a different style of game. [00:46:51] Speaker A: So the court's bigger. [00:46:52] Speaker B: So the rule sets are specific to that style of play. Something so minute FIBA has an eight second back court, right. And then if the ball goes out of bounds, you don't get a new eight seconds or whatever the case may be. Well, FIBA's goal was to speed the game up. When you take a shot and the ball hits the rim, instead of getting a full 24 reset, you get 14 FEBA's mentalities. You don't need 10 seconds to bring the ball up court. You, you have the ball in the front court already. It helps speed up the game. Well, FIBA adopted that then. The NBA adopted it because they realized, oh, this is gonna, this is going to help accelerate the game. I think the five fouls kind of helps helps players be honest, you know, stay honest. They don't have that extra six foul to say, okay, I can whatnot and whatnot. But there's pros and cons to it. And it really all just depends on the, the style of game. But I think the rules are set for those specific philosophies and styles to [00:47:53] Speaker A: those games because some people will come and say, hey, you come to fiba, you get away with a lot more stuff. In terms of the aggressiveness, yeah, the NBA is more like, I would say it's a start driven league where it's [00:48:04] Speaker B: like touch fouls, you know, so that's perception, not necessarily reality. Once again, the FIBA game is more physical, but the FIBA game is also cleaner. They play better defense in fiba. They don't, I don't want to say they don't play no defense in the NBA, but they play better defense in fiba because at the lower levels in FIBA in Europe and they, the game is taught completely differently. So they. The defense, although physical, although aggressive, is often legal in FIBA games because they're taught at a young age how to play proper defense and stuff like that. But I will say that the FIBA game is more physical than I would say the NBA game. Now people think the NBA game is soft. Yeah. I would dare ask you, go be on the floor with those NBA guys and see how soft that game is. When I. [00:49:04] Speaker A: Good luck. [00:49:04] Speaker B: When I was at USA training camp and you see Anthony Davis and Joel Embiid going at it, there's nothing soft about the two of them beating the bejesus out of each other. But because they're so big, it affects them Differently, but people don't see that. People don't notice that. [00:49:20] Speaker A: Yeah. I want to talk about officiating. Canada. [00:49:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:23] Speaker A: How would you assess it? The state we're in? I'm someone that complains about it. I'll be honest with you. Yeah, I think a lot of people do, maybe more so. I don't know if you've heard, seen a lot of the dialogue with the cbo. People have talked about it. I want to talk to you about that, too. But how would you assess officiating in Canada right now? Are we in a good place [00:49:47] Speaker B: from an international standpoint? We're in an excellent place. We have a lot of referees that get nominations to go to different tournaments and get lots, lots and lots of opportunities and stuff like that. At the, at the U Sport level, at the CEBL level, I, I would say the same thing. I think where we're hurting in Canada, and we talked about it a little bit before the podcast, where we're hurting is there's the game is growing at a much faster pace than we have referees and, or can train referees. So therefore, at the grassroots level. Yeah. Officiating isn't necessarily the best, or they're struggling and then it becomes the snowball effect. Right. Because they get poor officiating at the grassroots level, then the next level they go up. Well, the players are not trained properly because of the officiating they've gotten, so the players aren't the best. And then it kind of just goes up and up and up. So I would say on a, on a national stage, I think Canada Basketball and Seabock are, are doing a great job and doing the best they can, but the game is growing much faster than we are putting out referees, training referees and, and, and have good referees. [00:51:03] Speaker A: Yeah. Are we doing enough to get, like, young referees? You feel like in this. [00:51:07] Speaker B: I think we're, we are, we're starting to get there. We're a little late, but we're starting to get there with social media campaigns and marketing and stuff like that. But what doesn't help us is, okay, we get those young referees. The pay isn't great, and then the parents and coaches are absolutely insane. Absolutely insane. I can, I've had easier times reffing CEBL games and, and every other game you can think of than when I go back in Montreal and I say, oh, you know what? I'm going to go help out and I'm going to ref that U15 game or that U13 game. That's where the pride is, where that's where the parents think that they're Larry Brown coaching and that they know what's best and they are going absolutely insane. And then the coaches think that they're coaching in the NBA and they're going absolutely crazy. So that makes people say, hey, I don't need to do this for 30 bucks or 35 bucks or whatever the case may be. [00:52:12] Speaker A: I was gonna ask too. Like, I'm guessing you've heard stories about like, abuse towards like refs. [00:52:17] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:52:17] Speaker A: How much is that, like driving people away, you think? [00:52:21] Speaker B: I think that that is a good chunk. At least 45, 50% of the problem. Any good young referee we have, if you send them to the wrong game, they're like, what? Why, why am I doing this? I, I don't need this abuse, right? Like, no, I'm not, not for this. I go, I'll go get a part time job. Or I'll go, I'll go referee badminton. Ain't nobody yelling me badminton like it. That's, that's kind of the point. We're, we're getting to. It's very, very bad. They had a they earlier this year or late last year. I don't know if you wouldn't have known this, but in Nova Scotia, in Halifax, they had a ban on all games under 15 and lower. There were no parents allowed in the gym. [00:53:09] Speaker A: Why? [00:53:10] Speaker B: Because the parents were going crazy, abusing referees, getting up in their face, blah, blah, blah. And I was so proud and happy to see that basketball Nova Scotia put their foot down and said, no. If this is what you all want to do, then no. At the end of the day, parents, you're there to what, support your kid and watch the game? Why are you cussing out referees? Why are we that emotionally involved that we're cussing out referees? And the, the other side to that, referees make mistakes. I'm not saying we're all perfect and stuff like that. And I, and I understand emotion and I understand you can be upset, but it's a human being. It's a 16 year old. Why are you going crazy? You're 40 something going crazy on a 16 year old. Sorry, my little rant. [00:53:58] Speaker A: No, I love it because we have one listener from Halifax, loyal listener, Andrew. I want to shout out to him. I didn't know it was like that back there in Halifax where, you know, it gets rowdy, you know, but they're passionate about basketball too. [00:54:09] Speaker B: But they have it, they have it, they have it here in Toronto. Toronto, it's bad as well. In, in, in Quebec, in Montreal, it's starting to get bad, but it's just like, man, it's, it's a basketball game. We're. The goal is we're all here to see everybody succeed playing this sport. Why does it get to that point where we're driving officials away? [00:54:32] Speaker A: Yeah. In terms of pathways, what does that look like for a referee? If, say they're looking at you, they see you people certified. How do I get to that path in the Canadian system? Is it possible in a few years? How quick the ascension? Obviously, like, was your rise that quick? [00:54:54] Speaker B: My, it was different. It was a different time now. And like I said, there's a, there's definitely a structure and a pathway in place now. FIBA does their licensing. Every two years, they do a licensing cycle. So if you don't get in in one year, you got two years to wait before your next cycle. But I will say this, in the world, in the world, Canada, when it comes to developing referees and educating referees, we are amongst the best. I've had the opportunity to travel, I've been in the States, so I know what it's like in the US and stuff like that. We do a phenomenal job of developing and coaching our referees. To answer your question about the pathway, get involved with your local association. And once you get involved with your local association, then you can find out about getting involved on the national scene. So it starts by going to the U15, U17 Nationals that just happened last week and getting in that pathway and then just taking it as it is, as it comes. If you're identified, you'll be put on a pathway, a FEBA pathway or a US path, sport pathway, whatever the case may be. So there, there definitely are opportunities for referees that want to take it seriously, that want to get better, that want to work hard. We're always looking for good referees coming up the ranks. [00:56:25] Speaker A: You talked about pay. What does that look like compared to like the States? [00:56:30] Speaker B: That's the other thing that tickles me about the officiating landscape here in Canada. In the States, when you referee, you can be a basketball referee in the United States and it be your full time job. That's it. Refereeing at the college level, that can be your full time job. You make enough money. That is not the case here in Canada. Far from it. Here in Canada, it's a decent little side hustle. But the referees that referee at youth sport, the referees that referee at college, the referees that referee at the cbl I say are crazy because they're doing it for the passion they're not doing it because we're well paid. That is far from the case. I'm not saying we're doing it for free. But if you were to take what we're making here for a youth sport game or a CBL game and compare it to other countries, specifically the United States, they'd laugh us out of the conversation. [00:57:35] Speaker A: Yeah, because I remember being at eybl, I don't know if you've ever been, but on the sideline, what I like, I don't know if I see this in Canada. Correct me if I'm wrong if this happens, but during the EYBL games, refs are pulled to the side mid game and then somebody else goes into their place and they're asking them like they're basically quizzing them or they're getting assessed and there's like a whole officiating committee that do that. Is that in Canada? But I feel like in the States they do it like it's a, like it's. The investment is crazy. [00:58:09] Speaker B: So what happens is a lot of those EYBL events, they use those as camps for college referees. So that happens. We do have officiating camps here. I'm going to plug plug the Montreal Elite camp. We have our camp, we have a camp in of front Montreal where we bring in, we bring in NBA referees, NCAA referees, FIBA referees to train our officials. They have a camp here in Toronto, Terra camp where the same thing I've been a clinician and they bring in NBA referees and NCAA referees and do the exact same thing. Matt Calio, who is a Canadian, is a Canadian referee, but the only Canadian referee in the NBA, Matt Calio, runs a camp in Calgary and once again brings in NBA and NCAA referees. So there are camps here for officials to go to and get trained and stuff like that. There are like I said, many, many opportunities for improvement. But you also need to make an investment. Right from the referee side. [00:59:13] Speaker A: Do you like the number of like people that are getting into referees that you might be hearing? [00:59:17] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean we've got a good young crop of young, I said that twice, young referees coming up in the pipeline, which is great. They're being identified here in Canada, they're being identified in the United States. Some are in the NBA pipeline trying to go that route. So we do a great job, as I said of, of training our referees. The, the issue as, as I mentioned earlier is those same young referees, not necessarily when they have a bad experience, but when the number of bad experiences or they have that one major experience that turns them off they just be like, ah, you know what? I don't need this. [00:59:57] Speaker A: Yeah, it's retainment. [00:59:58] Speaker B: Is that you think retainment is a big issue as well? You know, if we do a recruiting class in September and get 25, 30 referees at our recruitment class, that same class of referees we have, if you look two years down the road, there might be three, four left, crazy five left, you know? [01:00:19] Speaker A: Cause I don't know if you watch high school games. [01:00:21] Speaker B: I do. [01:00:22] Speaker A: I feel like personally, and maybe you sports too. I got a lot of TMU games I covered. I went to tmu, I went to Ryerson, I'll go to U of T at times to watch games. And for me, I feel like I see the same 5 refs. I feel like I might know their names by now and I've never chatted with them, you know. What are your thoughts on that in high school? To me, I think it's extreme esports. I think there might be a system where it's like, okay, you're in this region, you go ref this area. How can we do a better job, maybe on the high school level? [01:01:01] Speaker B: So I think in both instances it's geographical. There are regions and referee associations that handle certain schools and stuff like that. I know at the, at the oua, it's a provincial board, so you can get a referee from Sudbury or wherever to, to come down to tmu, but then you run into travel costs. Right. And that's a whole nother situation there. But yeah, I could totally see and understand why you would see a lot of familiar faces in certain areas in certain regions because of travel costs and availability. Those might be the only referees available at that time. Once again, we go back to, this is nobody's full time job. So you're telling me I got to cut out work at 2 o' clock to spend two hours in traffic to make it to Father Henry Carr or whatever the case may be for $50 or whatever it is to then get yelled at by parents and blah, blah, blah. Like I get paid enough, you know what I'm saying? Like, I'm going to cut out, work early, you lose money there, drive in traffic, gas, parking, blah, to then go. So it's, it's not, it's not as easy as people think it is. [01:02:20] Speaker A: Yeah. Do you think, like, what do you think Canada needs to do a better job in general to like help the next generation of officials? [01:02:33] Speaker B: The training is fantastic. If there's somehow they could invest in the financial aspect. And I don't want to sound greedy or Anything like that. Because at the end of the day, many of us, a lot of us, most of us do it because we're passionate about the game, about the game of basketball, and we want to stay involved and stay engaged. But I think if you started to invest more money into it than there's, then there's. From the officiating standpoint, well, I'm being paid more now. I got to take this more seriously. Not that you shouldn't be taking it seriously to begin with, but I know in the States they get paid well and you can't be out there lollygagging and, and all that because. Yeah, because. Because that coach will be like, yeah, this guy ain't taking it seriously. Referees cost my school $50,000 a year. Y' all got to do better than this. So there's a little bit more accountability. Not saying that there's none here in Canada, but I think, yeah, investing a little bit more financial in the structure for officiating might help. [01:03:50] Speaker A: Yeah. We're over an hour into this podcast and I wanted for people that are gonna listen this deep, there's been a lot of conversations about the cbl. [01:04:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:04:00] Speaker A: Officiating. I don't know if you probably saw the Scarborough that lost how many players? [01:04:04] Speaker B: Did something happen there? Something happened. [01:04:06] Speaker A: Yeah. I was like, man, I don't know what happened there, but potentially cost them their season. A lot of people are talking about, I don't know how many players they lost. I don't know. Who were they playing? Was it Brampton? [01:04:17] Speaker B: Who's Brampton? [01:04:17] Speaker A: Brampton. Brampton in the finals. What are your thoughts on just like the conversation around the CBL officiating right now? And like, I don't know what you can say exactly, but what are your thoughts on just like what, what the dialogue is and like, I don't know what discussions are being had just about it. [01:04:34] Speaker B: So the CBL has been great for basketball in Canada, both for the game and for the, for the players he's given opportunities. And the same for officiating. What I can say about the CBL is the CBL does their, their best to hire the best referees available in Canada. But in doing so, people have lives, people have families, people have jobs. As we said, officiating is nobody's full time job. So I'll give you an example. All the FIBA referees in Canada, all, most if not all referee in the cebl. And most of the time when they're officiating, they're okay. I'm not saying that nothing happens in their Games, but they're there as a. As a. As an anchor and everything like that. There was a span for a month, month and a half. I didn't do a CBL game because I was traveling for fiba. I was traveling for another tournament. I was. Other referees are in the same boat the CEBL is in the summertime. I have. Let's just say, for example, I'm a CBL referee. I have two kids. My kids have been in school all year and I'm at work. Summer comes along, now they're off from school. It's time for family vacation. I'm not going to disclose what the CBL pays, but I can go do a CBL game or I can go to Calypso Water park with my wife and my two children who I haven't had a family vacation with. Or like, once again, we're human. Right. So the kudos to the CBL for doing the best they can, but there's only so much they can do given the landscape of. Of where things are. Did that answer? [01:06:31] Speaker A: It did. [01:06:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:06:32] Speaker A: Because we're talking about it. All the stuff that we're talking about, whether it's investing in refs, the pay, how there's not that many in a grand scheme of things. [01:06:43] Speaker B: Right. [01:06:44] Speaker A: Where, you know, like. And it's tough. Like we were talking, I think, before the podcast, too, there's only a handful of FIBA refs from Canada. [01:06:51] Speaker B: Right. There was. There's something like. Don't quote me on this, but there's something like 6,000 referees in all of Canada. And there's about. There's about 16 or 18 FIBA referees. [01:07:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:07:04] Speaker B: That. I don't even know what that percentage is, but that's very low. [01:07:07] Speaker A: Yeah. As we're wrapping up. If you were given the keys. [01:07:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:07:14] Speaker A: To everything when it comes to officiating in Canada. [01:07:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:07:17] Speaker A: What are like, maybe a few things you would change? [01:07:19] Speaker B: I mean, we touched on all of it more or less in the, in the. In the podcast. I, once again, I think they do a great job training, so I would keep that where that is. I would say I'd try to invest. Pump some more. Some more funds into officiating. And then. This is going to sound completely. But I would have a zero tolerance policy for abusive officials. Like, no problem. You want to support the game and support your kids, but by abusing officials, we're doing more harm to the game of basketball then we are doing good. [01:07:55] Speaker A: What's next for you? Obviously, covering the official CBL championship. [01:08:00] Speaker B: I'm going to be. Yeah. I've got the CBL championship qualifiers. And then next. Yeah, the next window at the end of August, I'll be going back to the Dominican Republic for a game. I believe they're playing Chile, so I'll be going back to the Dominican Republic for that. And then hopefully I can get like, at 10 days, two weeks of just no basketball. But then the season ramps up. Right. Again with preseason games and all that kind of stuff in September. [01:08:29] Speaker A: So do you have any goals, dreams where you look at like, hey, I want to officiate an Olympic game. I want to do that. I want to make. Has the NBA ever cost you about too? [01:08:40] Speaker B: Yeah. So of course, you know, all those things would be amazing and all those things would be nice, but I learned a long time ago in the. The art of officiating, or if you want to say the business side of officiating, control what you can control. So my goal is to be in the best shape I can be and be the best referee I can be. And if I can do that, when an opportunity comes knocking, I'll be prepared. [01:09:10] Speaker A: Or [01:09:13] Speaker B: I can look myself in the mirror and say that I was the best that I can be and I can control that. I can't control assignments. I can't control NBA. I can't control any of that stuff. Just be the best you can be and that's it. [01:09:30] Speaker A: How would you describe your journey? From what, calling games in Montreal? Yeah, locally. I think you even won CBL official the year at one point. Yeah, he's one of the good ones, guys, you know, like over time with cbo, but he's one of the good ones. How would you describe your journey? [01:09:49] Speaker B: Humbling. Humbling. Very humbling. And often I have people that reach out and, you know, say that, you know, following my journey has been an inspiration and all that stuff. And I think all that is. Is cool. And as I said, I've never, never in my wildest dreams did I think it would take me here. But I would just say humbling and very grateful for the opportunity that basketball has allowed me. [01:10:22] Speaker A: Jason, I can't thank you enough for coming on the podcast. I feel like this is a really riveting conversation. I learned a lot just about officiating, the culture, what it's like behind the scenes of it. And these are the type of conversations I wanted to have on the podcast because I feel like, you know, officials aren't. Are misunderstood at times. [01:10:43] Speaker B: That's the way I don't think officials are disliked. I think officials are misunderstood. That's very well said. [01:10:50] Speaker A: Yeah. I can't thank you enough. Again, dropping by. Decide to stay connected with you. And. Yeah, I can't thank you enough for dropping by on the show. [01:10:59] Speaker B: Thank you for having me. And I'm glad to come back anytime. And we want to do a round table and all. Oh, man. I'll let them know. [01:11:07] Speaker A: I'll bring a maybe a CBO coach. [01:11:10] Speaker B: Yeah, sure. [01:11:10] Speaker A: We can have a conversation. [01:11:11] Speaker B: Absolutely. Absolutely. [01:11:13] Speaker A: Jason, like I said, I can't thank you enough. This has been the Canadian Basketball show, your go to spot for the latest news, stories and analysis on Canadian basketball. I'm your host, Lee Ben Osman with my guy, Jason. And we out.