What is wrong with U Sports basketball? Can it be fixed?

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:03] Speaker B: Welcome to the Canadian Basketball show, your go to spot for the latest news stories and analysis on Canadian basketball. I'm your host Lee Ben Osman. I've been wanting to do an episode covering the youth sports basketball landscape for a minute now. If you know me, that's where I got my start covering basketball and I still go to games all the time. It's some of my favorite basketball tour to watch in the city. But recently, maybe not just recently, over the last few years, some of the top players in youth sports have been getting calls and offers to go play NCAA Division 1 basketball. And I wanted to know, I wanted to speak to you sports coaches on how they're adjusting to this. Our programs embracing it, do some hate it or do some love it. Joining me to discuss these changes is a man that just hit the 500 win milestone in esports, was the head coach this past summer of the Ottawa Black Jackson cbl, has also coached with Canada basketball various levels and he's the head coach of the Toronto Metropolitan University, my alma mater. Dave Deverio, welcome to the show. How you doing? [00:01:13] Speaker A: Appreciate you having me. Yeah, it's nice. Great to see you again. [00:01:16] Speaker B: I just mentioned 500 wins. Do you like look back at your journey and like what goes through your mind when you hit your 500 wins as a coach? [00:01:27] Speaker A: I think the first thing that hits me is I'm old. Right? Like you got to be around a long time to win 500 wins. But just the journey and getting to that point and all the people that you've, you've met along the way and all the coaches and assistant coaches that have, you know, contributed to this and the players and it's just, it's been a long journey and the friendships and the relationships along the way have made it really special for me. If you'd asked me if I was going to achieve this milestone, I wouldn't, I wouldn't know. But I'm very thankful, I'm very grateful and very humble that was able to achieve it. But you don't do this alone. You do this with some great people supporting you along the way. [00:02:04] Speaker B: Yeah, when I think about 500, I think it puts you in probably in a rare category of like youth sports coaches that I don't know how many have actually hit 500. But for yourself obviously started coaching what, Ottawa, McGill, now TMU. How has like maybe your philosophy as a coach adapted over the years and changed And I feel like adapt, adaptability is probably the biggest thing for coaches. Right. Being able to adjust to how the game is played nowadays. How has your, like, philosophy as a coach changed? [00:02:40] Speaker A: Well, you definitely have to adapt or else you're not going to be successful. I mean, players change. The game has changed. The whole introduction of analytics has changed the game. So if you're not adapting to the way things are and the way players are, you're probably not going to survive in this profession. But at the same time, you have to rely on the things that have helped you be successful along the way. And so there's probably a little bit of old school in me, some tough love, but also knowing that you gotta let players be players. And I think my experience with Canada basketball and coaching, like RJ and coaching Jamal Murray and those guys really taught me that. That you got to coach them up, but you got to let them be who they are. And so that was a really valuable lesson for me. And I've taken that to, you know, every school that I've gone to and just, you got to embrace change. If you don't embrace change, you get left behind. [00:03:33] Speaker B: Yeah. A and two, start to the regular season for tmu. What's been the most impressive for you? Just about what your roster's been doing to start the year. Final Eight bound. If I say, like, I hope our. [00:03:44] Speaker A: Alum would like to hear that for sure. But that's our goal, right? Trying to build on, you know, what Coach Rana did before and trying to keep his legacy going and with the things that he did here at Ryerson or TMU now. And so, you know, it's with COVID Covid kind of changed the world a little bit in basketball a little bit. And where were we at with the program? And so we really had to kind of go back and rebuild it. And so, you know, I think the pressure of the reputation of what Ryerson basketball is and was is got to me a little bit because I was looking for that instant gratification and success. And then I had to do a recheck and think about how we want to build this and make it sustainable and where we want to go with this. [00:04:28] Speaker B: How did you get the team? You tell me about that, because I know you're at McGill. McGill's a high level. We talk about it. Not to. Not to. Not to talk down on the rsac, but you guys were getting every. As we're getting to the Final Eight several years. Right. So leaving that, coming to oua very competitive. I'm honestly glad I don't have to watch Carlton win every single year. Yeah, I'll get your thoughts on that. I Don't know what's changed, but, like, to make that, like, there's. I feel like in new sports now, there's not one team that's constantly dominating. You know what I'm saying? But what's been. Tell me about how TMU became an option for you and moving from Montreal to Toronto. [00:05:10] Speaker A: You know, McGill. McGill was a great place for me. They treated me so well. I never actually thought I would ever leave. I mean, they, you know, I had some options and some different opportunities, but, you know, McGill was keeping me there. They treated me really well. I love the city of Montreal and we were successful. And I think that was part of the challenge. Leaving Ottawa U was. Nobody thought we could ever win at McGill, always known for its academics. And so that challenge, kind of like, it hit me and I wanted to do something special there. And I thought over our 10 years we did that. But you get to a certain point where I don't know if we could have gone any further. We had gotten to the Final Four twice, and I didn't think we could go beyond that. And so what was the next challenge for me and being a Toronto guy, I wanted to come home. My son was at Orangeville in a senior year. My parents are still in Toronto at the time. And so it's like, do I want to go home if this opportunity comes up? And I mean, I waited back and forth. I think the deadline was 5 o' clock for the application. I think I put my application at 459. So I weighed with it. It was a tough decision for me to leave McGill, but I wanted to come home. I wanted to do something. I know. I know Roy had taken the team to the finals and got real close. I think they lost by two in a championship game. [00:06:27] Speaker B: I think I was there for that game. I was in Halifax. [00:06:30] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right. [00:06:30] Speaker B: That was probably one of the craziest games I ever witnessed. [00:06:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:34] Speaker B: And Calgary. One off. I forget. Exactly. But it was forgetting his name. [00:06:38] Speaker A: But, yeah, I know the guy you're talking. [00:06:40] Speaker B: Yeah, I think his last name. Layup. [00:06:43] Speaker A: That's right. [00:06:44] Speaker B: It haunts a lot of those players. [00:06:45] Speaker A: And so I. I wanted to come home and try to do something that's never been done and take a Toronto team and to win a national championship with the Toronto team. You know, my time, I'm a little older guy, so my time is running out a little bit. So I wanted to do it. That's what I wanted to put on my resume as a coach. And I didn't think it was A better place to do it than to do it at Ryerson at the time and tmu. But again, Covid changed the world. Like, when I came to Ryerson, they had a really good team. Roy had left a really good team behind and Borco, they left a really good team behind with some seniors. So I thought, this team has a chance to go back and win it. And then with COVID I never got a chance to coach any of those guys. And so we had to rebuild. And so I like where we're at right now. I like the direction that we're going. I think our team has a chance to be successful this year. It's wide open, right? And so. And I don't regret leaving Montreal or McGill, and I'm really happy where I'm at right now. [00:07:42] Speaker B: You obviously came during COVID like you just mentioned, and during that change few years, I think right around that time, Nil becomes a big thing in college basketball. And that's why I wanted to have you on this podcast. Just talking about how, like, coaches are adjusting to this new landscape where now NCAA schools are calling for you sports players. I never thought I would see the day, but I watching it live, I think you knowing the talent and that for coaching it for how many years, you know that esports players are capable to play at the D1 level. What was that initial reaction when you heard, wow, they're starting to call up esports players? [00:08:24] Speaker A: For me, it's about time. Like, if you would. If we'd have had this back in the day with all those guys who were playing U sport back in the day, there are. There would have been so many Division 1 guys. And so this is an opportunity that, you know, it's well deserved. There's so much talent in this city or in. Within youth sport itself that there's enough guys that could play Division 1 basketball. What. What level that. That's to be determined, but never a doubt whether the talent existed. Right. And so for us now, it's like, how do you use this in terms of your recruiting? Are you. Are you. Are you going to, like, fight this? If you fight it, you're going to get left behind. Because this is the trend, this is the way it's going. We talked about adapting over the years, and so I think this is a good thing because being a father of a basketball player, my son's goal was to play Division 1 basketball. And so if I can help a young guy get to Division 1 and do the things that he wants to do, I'm all for it, you know, you get those guys that get bitter because, oh, I coached him for two years and then he's moving on and there's nothing in return. There's that perspective and there's the other perspective that you've, you've actually helped somebody get to where they want to get to and then you go find the next. So we actually use it in our recruiting right now? Yeah, yeah, we do. We like, we find a kid that we think is really, really good. We tell them like, we'll be disappointed if you're still here in two or three years. [00:09:46] Speaker B: Wow. [00:09:46] Speaker A: We, we need to get you to where you want to go. [00:09:49] Speaker B: What's the response? Usually when you tell kids that I. [00:09:51] Speaker A: Think kids are for it. Right. I mean like every young man wants to play Division 1 basketball and now with the portal, these kids are not getting those opportunities because universities, us colleges are recruiting seniors, transfers, so young kids and freshmen are getting left behind and so they need a place to play and a place to grow. So I think youth sport is the best avenue. You can go to juco, no question. But if you can go to youth Sport and play 20 minutes, 25 minutes a game, put up numbers, get credits towards a degree, I think that's probably the best route for you because even if you're a freshman and you go down there, you're probably going to play three minutes a game, get red shirted most often. Right. And so like if you can come here and play and put up numbers and then go play down there like you and you see it, there's like eight or nine kids who've done it over the last year or so and they're all successful and where they've gone, if they haven't, they've moved on or they've benefited financially, that's a win win scenario. And so that's how we approach it. It's a win win scenario and we're not here to hold you back again. If you're still here after three years and we think you're that good, then we haven't done our job and you haven't done your job. So it's a partnership. [00:10:58] Speaker B: You talked about it. A lot of kids getting left behind now, especially with transfer portals, 25 year olds playing college basketball now. Has this made like esports more competitive in your eyes where like now a lot more talent is staying to play? [00:11:13] Speaker A: I don't think it's quite there yet. I think the juco route is still there because their juco years don't count. So I think it Makes it attractive to young guys to do that. But I don't know whether, you know, we had a kid last year, Javier. And Javier was. We had him for one year and now he's at Troy, Got his deal and went, went. But Javier went to JUCO for two years and didn't play. We got a chance to come to TMU and play and put up numbers and show everybody what he's capable of doing. Now he's playing Division 1 basketball on a Division 1 team. And so I think that, you know, a lot, a lot of kids are going to look at that option. It's how they approach it and how they do their research and their homework and have. I can have legit and honest conversations with their coaches. Like, every time I recruit a kid, we have these legit conversations, like, do I think you're good enough to play Division 1 at this point? Maybe yes and maybe not. But we're going to try to get you to where you want to go. And here's the plan. We're going to do this together. And so I think it's a great thing. These kids are going to get opportunities to do things, but they got to embrace the different options that are available and the different paths to get to where you want to go. Like, you see kids now getting to Division 1 who played Division 2 basketball, NIA basketball. Right. And so you sport basketball now. So what is your best option? What is the best thing that might work for you? And then now we're getting all these kids who went down there and come back bounce back kids. And for us, when recruiting, bounce back kids, is that we only want you for a year to get you back to where you want to get to. Wow. [00:12:42] Speaker B: Really? [00:12:42] Speaker A: Right. Because that's where you want to be. Yeah. But this is what it's going to take for you to get to where you want to get to. And so this whole thing with young guys not getting an opportunity. Well, here's your opportunity. [00:12:53] Speaker B: I like that mindset because it's a lot of two of. I think in previous years, at least when I was covering esports, guys would play there, go to ncaa. Now it's obviously changed. And then they're not getting minutes. They're like, I want to end off playing some meaningful basketball in youth sports and then end up. A lot of them get pro careers right off of that. Right. You can. And then play professionally. There's so many guys that have done that. But you mentioned it. Can you like, sort of like walk me through when a NCAA program is contacts A kid. [00:13:26] Speaker A: Right. [00:13:26] Speaker B: Sometimes it happens, you know, for sure. [00:13:30] Speaker A: With Aaron. Yeah. [00:13:31] Speaker B: Aaron rooms obviously back the season with you guys. I want to ask you about his situation, too, in a bit, but what's that, like, when the conversation, they approach him and then after strong season, and do you. Most times, I'm guessing, because you're. You're embracing it. Do kids approach you and be like, hey, Coach, this is what. What's going on? People are reaching out to me. What's that like? And being like, you know what, Talk this through. Like, what do those conversations look like? [00:13:55] Speaker A: The. One of the things that I've, like, I've learned coming back to Toronto after being away for 20 years is that there's so many people that want to be involved in basketball. Hey, you telling me that. Right. I've always said it. Right. And I've, you know, I. I think I'm in. I have the best job in the world. But I also know that I got everybody watching me saying that I, he should be doing this, he should be doing that. And. And my line is that, you know what? I never lost a game sitting on my couch. Right. And so how do you approach it? How you approach the criticism? How do you approach, you know, all the negativity, all these people? Toronto is a different animal than anywhere else. Yep. Right. Pro basketball has done that. Everybody wants to be successful and be a part of basketball. I respect that. And so you're really competing against a lot of people. And so if you go back to Aaron, I mean, a lot of people are in Aaron's ear that I don't even know. Right. And for me, what's most important is my relationship with Aaron and whether Aaron can trust me and talk to me about what he wants to do and what his goals are. So I know Aaron. We've talked about it. And Aaron says, I want to go play Division 1 basketball. But what. Aaron, it wasn't just about money. Like, some of the money is lucrative and you got to go because it's money, Right? Yep. But for Aaron, it wasn't just about money. Aaron, like, if you look at the kids that are playing pro overseas because guys in youth sport don't make the league, they may go play Europe and then make the league, but they don't go directly to the league. [00:15:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:20] Speaker A: And so you find that kids who play youth sport are better prepared to play overseas than guys that have played Division 1 basketball. The game is different. We play FIBA. The Americans don't. Yeah. So I think we better prepare kids to be professionals overseas. Than what the nca, NCAA make just by rules and opportunities. And it's a business down there. It's just not a business here. We legitimately care about these kids. We want to win. [00:15:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:45] Speaker A: But we legitimately care about these kids. And so with Aaron, like, Aaron, what's the best situation for you? What do you want? And so we go through that process, but now I'm dealing with all the outside noise. There's an agent now involved, and I'm like, you got an agent? [00:15:59] Speaker B: Right. [00:16:00] Speaker A: I didn't even know. And so let's talk about that. Like, why didn't you. Why did you feel that you needed to get an agent? All right. And so these are these honest conversations that you have with your athletes, I think are important. But there's so many people that are trying to get involved and pull them this way and pull them that way. And if an agent can do a better job than I can, I'm all for it. But let's have that conversation. Right? And I feel that that's not happening. And so the coaches, that these kids are being left out in the dark, and then when things are not going well, then they come back to you and say, coach, can you help me? I think we have to change the way that things work. And so when Aaron's situation, I mean, Aaron could have went a lot of places, but Aaron wanted to play. Aaron didn't want to be the ninth man on a team. Yeah, like, when you're the top dog, you're the dog. So it's hard from going to being the dog to being a ninth man where you. You're putting up 15, 16 shots, now you're putting up two. And that didn't appeal to him. [00:16:57] Speaker B: And you had a rhythm most times coming in. And if you don't hit those first. [00:17:01] Speaker A: Two shots, we may not play the rest of the game. Right. So Aaron knows what he had at tmu, and he enjoyed that. I think he enjoyed playing for us, and I think he really enjoys his teammates and playing in front of home, in front of family. So every situation is different for every kid. Javir wanted to go, and so Javier went. Right. And so our job is to facilitate this and make this happen any way we can. And for every kid, it's a different path. You have to understand that path, embrace that path. But I think honest conversations, like, with. With guys is the most important thing. And if you're going to bring someone else from the outside in that, it's a conversation that you need to have with your coach. [00:17:40] Speaker B: I don't want to put you in trouble. You mentioned agents. [00:17:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:17:44] Speaker B: What are your thoughts on them being in the use? Is it needed? You think it's. Is it necessary? And what's that added dynamic? [00:17:52] Speaker A: I'm gonna put that back on you. I'm gonna put you in my seat. So if you spent four years. I've spent three or four years, five years now with Aaron. So I think Aaron, I have a great relationship. I probably know Aaron the most. Right. And so when an agent comes in who might have seen Aaron played 2 minutes, 2. Sorry, not 2 minutes, 2 games. And now I'm going to help you get to where you want to get. I don't know if that guy has an honest, I guess, observation or kind of like who Aaron is and what Aaron can do. And so I'm not trying to put Aaron in a situation where he's going to fail. Like, I had a lot of coaches call me about Aaron and if I didn't think they were good fits, I would tell Aaron, Aaron, I don't think this is a good fit. And I would tell the coach, look, if you're looking for this guy, this is the guy. If you're looking for something else, he may not be the guy. Or an agent just wants to get paid. Right. And so if he's negotiating Aaron's contract or Javier's contract, whoever's contract, they're going to get paid on that. I'm not looking to get paid. I'm just trying to get Aaron the best. The best scenario, the best situation that he can. And I know Aaron better than a guy who's watched him for two games. Yeah. [00:19:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:04] Speaker A: And so I think that's where it's different. But I understand the role of the agent. There's always a place for the agents. I just think that communication piece between the agents and the coaches needs to be better. [00:19:15] Speaker B: How do you balance to just obviously you want the best for Aaron, for example, for him. Javier, want the best for them. But also like, you got to maintain, like, stability within your own program. [00:19:24] Speaker A: Right. [00:19:25] Speaker B: How do you juggle that balance when players might be going D1. But it's like, I also, like, I need to win games, you know, I need to. I need to get. [00:19:34] Speaker A: I need to win, you know, I'm going to get fired. Yeah. So that is. I think it's one of the biggest challenges. And so you have to embrace that challenge. Like. Like, again, honest conversation. Aaron, are you thinking about leaving? If you are, I need to recruit at this position. Javier, are you leaving? If you Are I need to recruit someone at this position. So having those honest conversations. And the thing about TMU is we didn't get Javere until like, late August. So at tmu, you're probably going to get some guys in August that aren't available in, I would say, April, May. And so you have to respect that process, know that process and what it is. And so, again, I think there's enough players out there. If you lose a couple guys to the ncaa, you can get some good players. But I think if guys know that, hey, we're trying to help you get to where you want to go, I think it opens the door to some different kinds of players and different. Different mindset that not every coach shares. All right. And I think it's kind of like when you look at it, you go back to Calipari and one and done right. Those guys who wanted to go to the league. So our guys are not going to the league. They're going to Division one. So the league for them is Division One. So you look at from that perspective, he always had a competitive team. He always had a chance to win a national championship using that mind frame. And so we've embraced that kind of mainframe that you see Duke do it now with one and dones. So we're embracing that, I think that mindset and, you know, not fighting it, just, how can we make it better? How does it work for us? So it's just a constant thought process and how we can make it better. [00:21:05] Speaker B: So are you just, like, thinking, like, this is my roster for one year and I need to think. I'm just innovating in that type of mindset. [00:21:11] Speaker A: That's our approach to it right now. [00:21:12] Speaker B: Interesting. I was gonna say, how does it change? Like, sort of also they introduced the first year, I think second year, if they want, they can transfer. [00:21:22] Speaker A: Yeah. New rule. Yeah. [00:21:24] Speaker B: How is that? Added an extra wrinkle to things. [00:21:27] Speaker A: It's interesting. I don't think we really know it yet because we haven't gone through it as coaches. This will probably be the first year we've gone through it. So I think we'll adapt with that and change with that. But I think it's a good rule because a lot of kids who, you know, go play, go to a school and don't play their first year and they want to play, they get a chance to go play somewhere else. The negative side is that, you know, our coach is going to recruit other kids players, and you hope that, you know, within the profession and that honesty and that Professional, you know, being a professional, you don't do that. But you know what's going to happen. You're not naive knowing that's not going to happen. So you got to prepare yourself for that. So I think that you have to expand your roster a little bit more than, you know, used to carry. 14, 15, you might have to carry 18, 19 now. And so prepare yourself for that. [00:22:11] Speaker B: And is it also like, I feel like most times like the first year, second year guy will, I want to say, like coaches will be like, you know what, there's a long term path for you. Like you might not play X amount, right? But then now they look at it like, if I'm not playing X, I'm gonna go transfer. Like, how do you deal with that? Or is it just, you know what? This is the vision I have for you. This is like, do you prepare them before that, before the season even starts? Talk to them about this is what our plan is for you. This is what it looks like if and if you don't get minutes, like, I'm not telling you to transfer. That's not what I'm looking for. Right? Like, how do you deal with that? [00:22:46] Speaker A: You know, sometimes the best laid out plans don't always work out. Right. And I think being transparent with these young guys and letting them know where they stand within your program and sometimes you got to make some tough decisions that you don't want to make, right? And I, you know, in your coaching career, you go through those scenarios and how you deal with those scenarios. And I can, you know, I've been through these scenarios before, my other two schools and even some, you know, at tmu. And it's, I think it's that transparency piece. And these guys know that, hey, look, this is not a good fit. This is not working out for you. How can I help you get to where you want to go? Right? And you know, it may be a hit to your program that you're losing a guy, but you're helping someone get to where they want to go. And then someone else could be leaving in another program coming to you. Like, it's just a re, you know, it's changing the way basketball is because you get a kid for five years now, you might get a kid for one or two or three, and now they're moving on. So again, it's, it's, it's adapting. Like, do I think we can lose some guys after this year that are first? Absolutely. How am I going to prepare myself for that? I don't know, because I Haven't done it yet. Right? We've done, we've done it through the nil. Now we're doing it through U sport and transferring. So I think you learn through experimentation and you know, trial, you know, trial and error. So situations. But I think the transparency is the biggest piece. Right? Look, you're not going to play here, right? Our plan for you hasn't worked out the way we wanted it to work out. How can we help you? Where do you want to go? You want me to call this guy, right? Or do you want to stay here and come up with a new plan? So it's just that those honest conversations that I think are important. [00:24:25] Speaker B: Is it maybe you're not experiencing this yet, but keeping players invested in the program so it's not a distraction for others being like, you know what, I'm not playing, I'm just going to, I'm out. You know, like some guys have that mindset maybe like 5 games into the season off without playing time. Have you seen that? Like maybe not even with your team. Just like other programs of like getting word of like this is not working out situation with a player and it's like, you know what this is, this is really going to affect a lot of, a lot of things in the U sports coming up. [00:24:56] Speaker A: I'm going to be honest, I don't worry about other teams, I worry about my team. And so we haven't luckily knock on wood right to this point. But I, I believe you know what, new rules comes change and so I'm preparing myself for it. The one thing about TMU is it's a really competitive program. It's a, it's, you know, we like to think of ourselves as one of the best programs in the country. So the competition to play is going to be, it's going to be there every day, every night. And so you gotta, you gotta earn your minutes. You hear that expression all the time, right? And so, you know, sometimes, you know, you recruit a young guy thinking he's gonna be this guy and he's not this guy, right? And then sometimes you recruit a guy who you don't think is gonna be this guy and he becomes this guy. Like who would have thought Aaron Rooms would be. Could be the all time leading scorer at tmu? When we recruited Aaron, that was never a thought in my mind. But he's become that. And so it's, it's going to be a balancing act and how you deal with it I think is critical to your success. But I always believe that being transparent and Being honest and having these tough conversations will make everyone better in the end. [00:26:02] Speaker B: How do you separate, like, getting talked about it, you know, you coached Aaron for how many years getting, like, emotionally invested in a guy's future, like, being obviously, like, I don't maybe. I don't know. I think this is the best opportunity for you. But then sometimes, like, you might not know what your bias might be creeping in type of thing, right? But you also want the best for him. How do you balance that attachment and, like, wanting the best for them and also being like, I also think you can drop 20 here and we can, you know, do you go play pro? How do you deal with getting, like, close to these players now? Ncaa, they've been dealing for years. Like, guys like, you're talking about one and done Calipari, that's his system, right? How do you, like, adapt to, like, not get emotionally invested in this roster, in this team? [00:26:46] Speaker A: And, you know, that's a great question. I don't know, because I'm the kind of guy that gets emotionally invested. So that's. That's a really good question for me. I haven't really dealt with that yet. And so I guess I need to prepare myself for that because I know what's going to happen. Like, I thought we were. I actually thought we were going to lose Aaron. Right. And I was ready for it because we've had these conversations, and I want what's best for you, but I also want you to know that I think playing at TMU is the best thing for you. If you're not looking at finances, like the money, that TMU is probably the best place for you to play. And so, again, that's. It's that honesty. And I have conversation with, you know, Aaron and his mom. We've had these conversations, right? And, you know, recruiting's changed because back in the day, I'm doing house visits. I'm. I'm meeting mom and dad now. I'm meeting handler. I'm meeting this person, I'm meeting that person. So I don't, you know, I'm not building those relationships with mom and dad. I'm building them with other people that these young men trust. And so that's. That's part of my, I think, for me, growth and adapt. I'm. I'm talking to people that, like, why am I talking to. You should be talking to mom and dad. But I know that this person has probably played just as big a part in this guy's growth. And so it's important to me to build Those relationships, I was gone for 20 years. And for me to come back, the first thing was I had to rebuild all my relationships with people that I haven't really spoken to on an everyday basis for almost 20 years. And so I think that was it. And just how the landscape changed. Workout guys, right? This person, that person. And so. But I'm still a big believer that mom and dad is the, the people that you need to recruit, let them know that their kids are in. Good. This is the path. This is the plan I have for you and your son. And that's wrong with that. And if they don't believe in it, I can respect that. Because it may not be the same plan as what their, their handler thinks or who's ever overseeing their recruiting thinks, but I always think that mom and dad are the people that I need to connect with the most. [00:28:50] Speaker B: Yeah, obviously nil. So much money. We talk about it. Guys getting. I've heard guys getting paid 500,000 to sit on the bench. Just to sit on the bench, watch the team. Do you think, like, maybe get your honest thoughts on this? Will you sports ever pay players? Do you. Do you ever see this outcome? Because what, what can players earn? I know it's different from like you coached on Miguel. And from what I've heard, the east coast, they provide housing, that kind of stuff. Tuition, maybe. I don't know if on the west coast, that kind of stuff. What do you know just from like what you can actually give an Ontario kid and that. [00:29:28] Speaker A: And, and that's where I think the most disappointment for me has been. I was gone for such a long, you know, 10 years. I was out of Ontario for 10 years. And I think in 10 years I'm all about, how has the game grown? How's the. Is the game gotten better? And to me, it hasn't. It hasn't. Now, like someone who hasn't been around as long as I have, like, you'll. Everyone look at, oh, man, there's so much talent in the oua. I'm like, go back to when Roy was coaching at Ryerson and Smart was coaching at Carleton. So I went back and looked at that championship game when Carlton played Ottawa U. I mean, not Ottawa U, but played Ryerson. At the time, the 10 guys that started that game were all pros. They become. They became pros. If you look at a U Sport roster now, there's not 10 guys in that game that are pros now. So everyone looks at it from a different perspective, like, oh, talent in youth sport is the talent in youth sport back in the day, there was talent, 10 pros. So the starting five at Carlton, the starting five at Ryerson were all professional. And some of them national team, if not all of them. [00:30:36] Speaker B: I just watched them play at the Feeble Mare cup at Bahamas. Like half of them were all Carlton and TMU guys. [00:30:42] Speaker A: So when people say, you know, you sport, like I see it to an extent, but I still think back in the day, those players were better players, but there wasn't all these people pulling at him, these juco au, like it was different times. And I, you guys, you got to grow with the times. And so for me, with this, you know, nil is something I think is great for the opportunity. Like, you have to look at it from two perspectives. The hoop perspective, I'm a Hooper. And now the business perspective, like, if I can go down and make 150,000, but I'm not going to play, I. [00:31:18] Speaker B: Would say, personally, no one's listening, hey, for me, I'll just get my education. I'd go into a different career, 150k per year for me, I'd ride the bench. But these players don't do that. [00:31:27] Speaker A: You could think of it like, there's so many different ways you can manipulate this scenario. And so that's what I'm saying. You think it from a basketball perspective or do I think it from a money perspective? And so put myself in the shoes, I can go to Division 1, make 150. I'm not going to play a minute. Perfect. That means I don't use a year of eligibility. I just made 150 not playing. So if I want to come back to you sport, wow, I can come back to you sport, not use a year of eligibility. I just made 150. Wow. [00:31:58] Speaker B: I even think about it like that. [00:31:59] Speaker A: But again, it's. What perspective are you looking at this from? So I look at young, some of these young guys who have gone to three or four different schools in their life and was like, ah, you know, he's at four schools. Yeah, this guy's learned the system and he's. And he's taking advantage of the system. So at this school, I'm going to make this amount of money, but I can leave here and go to another school and make more money, play there and I can go, leave again and make more money. Why wouldn't you do that? From the business perspective, the basketball perspective doesn't always work because your role might change. Whatever, whatever. The scenarios are different, but I just made half a million dollars that I probably Might not make playing overseas. I'm not guaranteed any of that. So now it's a business decision or is it a basketball decision? And so I think you know who you're talking to, who your advisors are, who do people that you trust in your circle. Who's going to give you the best advice or give you those scenarios and play out those scenarios. I think is critical. Who do you trust? Like who has my best interest, Right. I think is really going to help these young guys because the money is going to get more. There's going to be more and more money and how you do this right. I think Ninga, who went to Kansas, you'd be a fool not to go to Kansas and make that money. [00:33:13] Speaker B: Go hang out with Darren Peterson. What I would be doing if I was him, become best friends with Derek Peterson. And then when he makes it to the NBA, right, Whenever he needs me, I'll be his trainer. I'm passing him the ball. That guy's, to me, he's the next best thing for sure. [00:33:26] Speaker A: He's a, he's an NBA lottery guy. He's probably might be the best pick. But if you look at his perspective, I just made whatever amount of money. You can hear different reports, may not play. You know, he's played some minutes this year, which is probably more than he expected would happen. And now I'm at Kansas. So when I graduate from Kansas basketball, every alumni, everybody who loves Kansas basketball is going to be looking out for me for the rest of my life. So is that a better scenario than me staying at the school I was at? Like, it's almost like you have to. Dude, if you don't go, I'm going to say that you're being like you're an idiot. I'm going straight up. You're being, it's not a great decision for you. Go. And if you don't play, here's the best part. If you don't play, you can come home and play your fifth year because you just redshirted, but you've made up whatever amount of money that you've made. So again, I think for every young guy, and if I was giving every young guy advice, get your circle of people that you trust, go through all the pros and cons and scenarios and make the best decision for you. And it could be a basketball decision, it could be a money decision, but whatever you decide, it's got to be the best thing for you. [00:34:33] Speaker B: Do you feel like maybe China players, do they understand like the trade offs, like academically you just Mentioned, oh, I might not play this. When you're having conversations with guys, do they fully understand, like, what it means to be jumping to a Division 1 program from esports, leaving the opportunity to like, when you're having conversations, do they fully grasp, like, what situation is? Because I'll be, I was, when I was young, like sometimes in one ear, out the other. [00:35:02] Speaker A: For sure, for sure, right? I mean, and today, like money, money talks, right? Of course you're paying me this amount of money, right? But then you get there, you're like, I hooping. I ain't playing. I love playing. So how do you deal with that? Yeah, I'm richer, I got money. But am I enjoying this experience? So what's more important to you? Is it the experience or is it the money? Like you hear us, all us old guys talk about, man, I wish they had had this when I played, I would have taken the money and run. Yeah, right. And then, then you look back at it and like I, I, I played with some guys that went down to the States and never played. They sat on the bench. That's what you want to do and that's what you want to do. But that's not, you know, that's why I respect Aaron because Aaron could have got paid, but Aaron wanted the experience of, of growing and preparing himself for, you know, being a pro. And so I think through tmu, he's got opportunities to play for Canada that I'm not sure he would have got if he went to the States because he may not be put, but who knows, man? We watched Aaron drop 16 on Oregon, right? So Aaron might have been different that way, but for some of these young guys, you know, opportunities to get in Canada, you're not going to get in the US in terms it comes to hooping, money will never, will never compete money. Right. Like, so you go back to your original question about oua. Oh, you way is different than any other conference because we don't give up full tuition scholarships, which makes no sense to me. [00:36:26] Speaker B: Yeah, tell me, what are your thoughts on that? [00:36:27] Speaker A: I think it's ridiculous. Like I said, I left 10 years ago and we were giving out 3, 500. So 10 years later we're giving out 5 grand. So we, in 10 years we've advanced by giving up $1500. [00:36:41] Speaker B: Has there been discussions? I think, I think who makes these decisions? [00:36:45] Speaker A: I think the conference itself and the ads and different people like, but we're not playing by the same rules. Like you said, out east, full tuition. Out west, full tuition. Quebec, full tuition. And then you talk about some residents and there's like, different scholarship, there's different things available. Like, it's a different animal here. And so I think a part of that is the success that Carlton had all those years, right? Like, why do you guys need more money? When Carlton won. Won all those championships? So you're kind of like, you know, if you hadn't won those, you might have a better argument. But because Carlton was so successful and the oua, you know, is successful when they go to the national championships, like, why do you need more money? You know, And I went through this process at Ottawa U when we. When we started, you know, we were struggling as a program, and then we had success. And then we got to a. I got to a point where I was like, I need more resources to be successful. We got to this level, but how are we going to get to the next level? He's like, why? Why do you need more resources? You're successful. Like, why do you need more money? Why do you need these things? Why do you need those things? And I was like, I need these things. And so that was part of my decision is why I left Ottawa U. To go to McGill. Because I felt I needed more and I thought I'd earn more. And so that was why I left. Right. And so that's, you know, that comes with success. If you're able to do all this on with this amount of resource and you're successful, why do you need more? You're doing a great job. And so we kind of shoot ourselves in the foot. And so you gotta. You gotta manage that and you gotta be. You gotta think long term. And I think our problem is that we don't think long term. We think short term. And I think for us, you know, at some point. You're watching. You're watching now. Quebec sent two to the national championships last year. That never happened. All these programs are getting better because they're able to do things that we can't do in Ontario. So you asked me why, you know, Carlton, you know, it's wide open now. Why isn't Carlton still winning? It's not because, you know, Carlton isn't still this great program. They are still this great program. It's just that everybody has maybe the same resources now that Carlton has that it didn't have before. [00:39:00] Speaker B: Yeah. Do you like this parody? [00:39:03] Speaker A: I do, yeah. [00:39:04] Speaker B: What's that like, too? Because I feel like. Who won a few years back, I think, was Lavelle the most? [00:39:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:39:09] Speaker B: They wanted setting. [00:39:10] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:39:11] Speaker B: I. The last team I would ever expect to win an esports championship. Shout out to them though, they did their thing. But when you're seeing like an eight seed Cinderella story win it all and then Carlton obviously kind of falls off a bit. They haven't been the same. But what's that like seeing like, you know what. And I'm guessing it probably like inspires teams where it's like, you know what, you're not down and out for for sure. [00:39:34] Speaker A: I mean, it's different the way we do it because if you get to host, you get to be in it. Right. So sometimes you're not always earning your way in it, but you're hosting, so you're in it. And you saw a team like a Val take advantage of being the host. [00:39:47] Speaker B: I would just, I don't know if I could host. Yeah, you have a whole year to prep or years. You kind of know ahead of time. This is the year I want to go for it. [00:39:56] Speaker A: You could try different things and do different things and experiment and do things and so that, that's definitely an advantage to it. Right. But you know, in a three day tournament, anything can happen in three days and game by game. And we saw that happen with Lavelle and so with, with the way basketball is not like again, I look back, I look at it from a different perspective now because I'm older and I've been doing this for a long time. How was basketball in this country gotten better? That's my philosophy now. So when I'm coaching, I'm thinking, I've been doing this for like forever. Has it gotten better? That's my question. And I can't say that it has. It's been eight. Eight teams, Final eight. Well, you're watching everywhere else in the world adding more teams. [00:40:44] Speaker B: I hate that. [00:40:45] Speaker A: Right. [00:40:45] Speaker B: I love that you brought that over. [00:40:46] Speaker A: So we did it for a while. We went to 10. I thought it worked well, gave other teams opportunity. Right. So everyone else is expanding their tournament and we're still stuck at eight. And there's more than eight good teams in this country. And so I don't think, I don't see growth. I don't see growth. Like, why isn't like I had this discussion and I have some great discussions with my administration and they're, you know, they're really good to listening to what I have to say. Or maybe they're just listening to an old guy go off. Right. But like we have a pot of money for are tuition, scholarships. So whatever that pot of money is, whatever it's youth Says you're allowed to give out 8.4 scholarship money. It comes out to this amount. So why can't I take my amount of money and do with it what I want? So if I want to give you a full scholarship that's worth 15 grand out of my 37 grand, why can't I do that? I'm not breaking any rules. We all have the same pot of money. I'm just using it to my discretion. So if I want to give out a full scholarship to Aaron, I can, and. But that leaves me with less money to give to everybody else. But, you know, so you're. You're actually becoming a, you know, it's a salary cap. You're learning how to deal with your money, how you want to give your money out, who you want to give your money out. And you're doing that now. Right. But we're not on the same playing field as everybody else. And so when they're giving out full tuition, like, we lose a kid to out east or out west, and they're like, well, I can get this and this and this, and I need the money, that I can't do it. Yeah. What do you say to it? Go 100%. Go, man, go. Right? And so I think that's the most. I don't. I haven't seen the game grow. And I think that frustrates me the most now that I'm at this age. Like, I. I'm a competitor. I like to win or lose. I want to win a national championship. But is the game any better? Like, what has USPORT done for men's basketball? What is OUA done for men's basketball? That's my biggest question now. I don't have all the answers, of course, but I think there needs to be discussion because there's so many Hoopers, and I think the landscape of basketball is changing. How are we going to get better? How are we going to make it better? Because if these kids want to stay home and use us as a springboard to get to where they want to go, how are we going to make this experience? Like, yeah, like, we want good players to play in the OUA again. 10 guys starting five, and both teams are professional athletes. We haven't had that. [00:43:12] Speaker B: Is there urgency you feel like, from you sports to, like, how do you think they feel about NIL scooping up players, top players leaving? [00:43:20] Speaker A: I can tell you this. It was an issue in hockey. They changed the rules in hockey. [00:43:25] Speaker B: What's the rules now? [00:43:26] Speaker A: I don't know. Something. They were losing Players to the states about college. So hockey coaches got upset. They changed the rule. So in the states, they were talking about juco, not eligibility. So we're like, well, we're gonna lose guys. If a kid can go to juco. [00:43:39] Speaker B: Not lose that legibility. Oh, my. [00:43:41] Speaker A: I'm gonna tell a kid to go to juco. I'm not gonna lie to you. Go to juco and then come back and figure out. Come back or go whatever. Figure it out. But you should go do juco. So we're like, how do we. How do we make that work for us? But there's been no conversation, right? How are we dealing with that? How are we dealing with change in time? We're stuck. We're like. We're in mud. You know, that tire that spins in mud? We're not tired that spins in mud. And so it's frustrating. I want it to be better. I want experiences for kids in youth sport to be better. I want our product to be better. I want everything to grow. And I haven't seen growth. And I think that frustrates me the most. [00:44:16] Speaker B: What can we do? Just, like, I don't know, maybe as media, I feel like there's not. My problem was, like, when I got into the industry, I was like, you know what? It's not a lot of coverage outside of, like, university papers, that kind of stuff covering youth sports. And not to say, like, these universities don't take the university paper serious, these independent papers, because I worked for one. But it's a different skill when there's. I feel like legacy media is putting pressures on, like, what's going on in esports? Why is there, like, Miguel, like, getting rid of, like, half their programs recently? Right? Like, what's going on there? You know, like, applying pressure. What do you think is the solution? Is there, like, is there something that I could do, is some media could do? Is there. What's this? What's the solution to, like, getting. Getting youth sports to. You know, I used to work for esports, actually. I did some stories for them, but now I'm applying some pressure, but I'm just like, what can we do to change things? [00:45:10] Speaker A: I think because you've been part of it. I mean, I would put that question to. To you, right? Like, now I'm a cranky old dude, right? [00:45:17] Speaker B: I agree with you, though. [00:45:18] Speaker A: I'm a cranky old dude now. [00:45:19] Speaker B: I love this. [00:45:20] Speaker A: Is. [00:45:20] Speaker B: This might be one of my favorite parts I've ever done because I. I know what the youth sports system is like. I know the Talent that's come from there. And I'm like, it's sad, like the way you're talking about it, saying like it, it's not as like I go to games and I'm like, you know what, 2016, like these times, like, it would sell out arena, like in terms of. [00:45:40] Speaker A: Look, I look back at what, you know, Roy and Ryerson did, and I look back and the gym was full, it was packed. Like, we don't have that now. I. People will give me a Covid. Covid. Covid. Covid. I get it. We're six years out of, we're six years out of COVID now. So we can't use Covid as an excuse anymore. [00:45:57] Speaker B: Right. [00:45:58] Speaker A: And so I'm not an excuse guy. So when I hear that, I mean that I don't know if I can say. Pisses me off. Yeah, right. It pisses me off. So I don't know if it's a priority, whether it's important to people. Like, like I've always tell my staff, like, I think we care about things more than other people care about things. And now again, I'm at this stage in my career where how can I leave this place when I retire a better place than what it is. And that was one of the things that I pride myself. And when I left Ottawa U, I left it in a good place and James has taken it to a higher place. When I left McGill, I left it in a good place and I believe Ryan's going to take it even higher. And so when I leave tmu, I know we ever get the job hopefully is Jeremy. I know I want it to be Jeremy. He's going to take it to a higher place, but it's just me. Like I need other people to think like me. And how do I. Like I'm thinking outside the box. I'm like, hey, why don't we run an in season tournament in the oua? [00:46:53] Speaker B: I love this man. [00:46:54] Speaker A: So I'm like, I'm gonna get eight teams. We're gonna charge each guy 500, the winner takes all. So you can walk out of here with four grand. [00:47:02] Speaker B: What would the OUA say about that? [00:47:03] Speaker A: I don't know. I've never brought it to the oil, but I've brought it to other coaches. [00:47:06] Speaker B: And they probably love it and they're all for it. [00:47:08] Speaker A: I, I said we can go to 12 games in new sport, 12 teams in new sport and do with the FIBA model where Pool A, pool B, pool C, pool you get, you're guaranteed two games. So you don't want your ADS thinking you're wasting money spending all this money to go out there and play one game. You're guaranteed two games in your pool, and then the winners of each pool play in the final four. And now you got 12 games. But again, that's just me. That's just an old guy that. Thinking outside the box. And again, I don't run a university. I'm not a president of university. I'm not an ad. So it's easy for me to sit in this seat and say, yeah, why don't we do this, why don't we do that? I don't know all the challenges that they face. So I don't think I'm always being fair in terms of that. But how do we make it better? How do we make it more rewarding for these guys? And I don't think these conversations happen. So if I know why it's not moving forward like the one, the, the great thing about McGill is that I had a million questions and they came back to me with a what? A plan? Like, they came back to me with a business plan. I'm like, okay, now we can have a conversation. They're serious, right? Serious. So this is your plan. This is how we're going to do it. You show me the numbers. So now I understand how this works here at McGill. Now I know it. I can't say nothing. I accept it or I don't. And so I accept it. I know where the revenue comes from. I know how we generate revenue. I'm good with this. I don't know that. Like, I don't know what the plan is with the oua. I don't know what the plan is with youth sport, how important basketball is at the OUA level, how important it is at U sport level. Right? I know we had a TV contract with Sportsnet to cover our final eight or a finals. Doesn't happen anymore. [00:48:53] Speaker B: Yeah, Tim McAll, he used to be the one I used to call the games. [00:48:56] Speaker A: Right. [00:48:56] Speaker B: Hasn't happened in years, I believe. I remember he used to be back on, like, the score. Like, they used to have stuff there. [00:49:01] Speaker A: Viewership. They tell us the viewership. No one's watching the games. Okay, but you don't have any games leading up to those games. [00:49:07] Speaker B: It's like, how do you expect people to get invested in these games, these talents? If you're like, you know what? Finally, here's some top university players, and here's what you. You got to, like, create some, like, investment early on. And, you know What I hate to be honest with you and I'm bring this up. They're charging to watch the games. I know, I hate that. [00:49:27] Speaker A: So they're trying to generate revenue any way they. That's how I think that that's why I don't know the business model, the business, how things are working. [00:49:37] Speaker B: They got to be generating money. If you're charging the Canada West, I think they're one of the first to introduce that model. I paid for it once. I'll be honest with you, I paid for. I try to watch those Alberta teams, those Calgary teams and did the OUA introduce it? I think someone mentioned it. [00:49:51] Speaker A: Yeah. This year, this is the first year. [00:49:53] Speaker B: Insane. I will say that it's. That's. I can't believe I don't know how many people paid for. I love to like learn the numbers on that. But if you're charging people, there should be some return, whether it's players wise or there should be some like you mentioned tournaments or something like that. [00:50:12] Speaker A: How we growing? Yeah, that's my question is what is our part in the growth of this game and what is our part in making this experience for these athletes who commit so much time? Like that's the one thing, like when I started to where we are now, we asked so much more of our. You're weight training, you're doing this, you're doing that study hall. And what are they getting in return? And so we're asking so much more of our athletes. But it's the same, like the experience is the same. I played. I don't see the experience being any different than I played than what it is now, except for fifteen hundred dollars more that you can get on an AFA scholarship. And that to me that doesn't, that doesn't show growth. I don't feel good about it. And again it's easy for me to sit in this seat and say all these things because I don't know the inner workings of the oua. And you. [00:51:03] Speaker B: I'm gonna find out. We'll do some podcasts. [00:51:05] Speaker A: All right. But to me that's important. Like how do we keep kids home? And I'll use my son's scenario. My son is a graduated in four years, played Division 1 basketball, but he's got one year. If he wanted to play a fifth year he could play here. But because he played four years in the U.S. he can't come back here and play his fifth. Even if he takes a master's program, he can't play his fifth. So how are we Getting. And there's many. A lot of guys are in the same boat. How are we getting the best players to play in youth sport if that's a simple rule? They're taking all our guys, and the guys who want to come back, we're not letting play. All he wants to do is take a master's here, and he can't because he can't play. There's some rules that just don't make sense to me, and I try to look at it from a broader perspective. Why do we have this rule? Would it, you know, would it be, you know, does every school. I, you know, does every school have a master's program? So is it an advantage to TMU because we have 20 master's programs and so. And so doesn't have them? I. I guess it is, but that's hurting our product. Right. And then I go back, okay, I go back to different things. Why hasn't this rule changed? Well, not every school can support the rule change. And then. So we're not making it better. So those three schools are holding back progress. So I don't know which perspective that people have on this or share on this, but for mine, it's. It might be completely different than everybody else's. [00:52:35] Speaker B: No, I feel like you're preaching to the choir, to be honest. I've talked to a lot of esports coaches, and I think the difference is. [00:52:41] Speaker A: I'm not afraid to say it now because I'm old and my time is running out. [00:52:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:52:44] Speaker A: Nothing to lose, right? That's right. I'm gonna retire. If I've done this at 35, might be blackballed. Blacklisted, right? [00:52:49] Speaker B: No, I don't think you. I think this is like, you know. [00:52:51] Speaker A: Like, I think I want to be progressive. I want this to be better. I want. [00:52:54] Speaker B: I. [00:52:54] Speaker A: There's so much talent here, right. That we don't get to see, or it's not growing or we're not doing enough to. And, you know, we've never said anything because we don't want to rock the boat. [00:53:04] Speaker B: It's time to rock the boat. Yeah, it's time to rock the boat. [00:53:06] Speaker A: We got to make it better. [00:53:07] Speaker B: I might get some angry emails from esports, but you know what? It's time. [00:53:11] Speaker A: But does it make a difference? Does it change, like. And I don't know if this is fair, and this might be controversial, but. Oh, you introduces a, you know, a Black or a BIPOC scholarship of $2,000, which I think is great, but why did they introduce it? Why do you think they introduced it? Does it take George Floyd dying to change a rule or to add something? No, this should have been done a long time ago. And how. And now that you've done it, how do we make it better? How do we build it? How do we get more money in that? How do we take it to the next? To me. So how do we take things to the next level? We get to here and we stay here and we stay here and we stay here. How do we get to here? And I applaud. Oh, you a for for doing that. It's a long time coming. It should have been. You know, when they said that they were going to take it, we're going to make it. Full scholarships, right? Oh, you said they're going to give out full tuition. Yeah, but who's got the money? Like, who's going to finance that? Like, I go to my ad and I'm like, okay, we can give out this amount of money. He goes, yeah, for sure. But we don't have the money to give out the full. And I respect that. They don't. So don't, don't announce that and think it's a big announcement when half the schools can't make it happen. So, you know, again, I, like, I'm sitting here, it's easy for me to sit in this chair and say all these things, but I don't know the inner workings of the higher ups. And I just want to make this the best experience that I can for these guys. I don't want. I'm a product of going to school, graduating with 35, $40,000 worth of loans that I got to pay back to osap. I don't want any of my guys to go through that. I don't want any of them to deal with that. Right. And so I think that's important. How do we do that? If BIPOC helps that. That BIPOC award definitely helps that. I think it's great that we have it in place. But how do we take it to the next level? [00:55:01] Speaker B: Yeah, we need more. [00:55:01] Speaker A: That's right. [00:55:03] Speaker B: I'm still paying back osap, you know, like, so they're still after me if I hope they're not listening to this. [00:55:08] Speaker A: That's right. That's right. I may have to move. I may have. [00:55:12] Speaker B: I might have to cut this part out because it's been. [00:55:14] Speaker A: How many can't show this part, fellas. [00:55:15] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm getting too many meals about, hey, you got to pay this. [00:55:18] Speaker A: But you know what I mean? Like, they got to Chase, I don't want. I'm asking this kid to put in like 20 hours a week to play for our school and represent our school, but we can't help them. Yeah, come on, that's not fair. [00:55:28] Speaker B: You mentioned watching that Carlton Ryerson game. So many pros in that. Why do you think is it you mentioned now guys are just going juco instead. They're doing X amount of years. Why isn't the talent level as high as what you remember it to be? [00:55:45] Speaker A: They can go somewhere else and play for free. You don't accumulate the OSAP debt. Right. You get to play at a higher scale, a higher level. Right. If you're a Hooper, you want to play at the best level. Right. Look, before the Raptors came here, if you said any kid was dreaming about the NBA, you'd look at him and say, okay, now you've seen it. You've seen all these guys get to the league. So it's not like a dream that doesn't come true anymore. It actually exists. And these young guys look at that and what is the best path for me to get there? Right? And so if we don't grow, they're not going to choose. We're not an option. We're like we're last option. And so I don't want to be the last option. I want to. I want us to be, you know, right up there or I want us to be better than juco. This is why you should come here and not go to juco. Yeah. Where would you rank? Esports. [00:56:36] Speaker B: Is it at the bottom? [00:56:38] Speaker A: Yeah. Doesn't compete with anything in the US right now. So if we're comparing it to what's going on in the U.S. i would say that if you're looking at in Canada, it's right where it needs supposed to be. [00:56:52] Speaker B: Could we talk about youth sports? Can any of these like other organizations help out like Canada basketball or anything? Like what could they do? Because I don't. I don't know if they're really tapped into this kind of stuff. Obviously they have players that end up playing for the national team. They see, they know what the pipeline is like. I remember just chatting with Nathaniel Mitchell, like and, and he was talking about it like a lot of you sports guys, you know, and it's. It's cool to see. But is there something the government on another level? Because I, from my belief, I just think you sports doesn't have money. That's what I think is what's going on. I think they're just, you know, what we, we don't have money to actually do any of this kind of stuff. [00:57:32] Speaker A: So if you. That. And if that's, if that is the. [00:57:36] Speaker B: Reason why I would assume I'm. I, I don't know. [00:57:38] Speaker A: You don't know? [00:57:39] Speaker B: That's my guess. [00:57:40] Speaker A: But, but that's. Then tell me that. Yeah, if you're telling me that we do not have the finances to do the things that we need to do, then now I know. So how do I get, like, I, I know the situation. How do I get around that? So how do I make it better? And I, again, I. I can draw back on our experience. When I would go to. I first started coaching, I had a thousand ideas about how to make this better. And every time I took it to my ad, he said no. So I had a gentleman that was, you know, an alumnus and someone who supported me in what I was doing, he said, well, how we make this happen on ourselves, like, without going through the AD in the school, how do we make it work? Like, if he says no to this, what can we do to make it work? And so that's the approach. Like, if you tell me you can't give me money because you don't have it, I respect that. So now I know I have to go get it, right? But now I know. Like, I think the part about being in the dark and not knowing how things work and, you know, what is the process for this decision? What is the process for that decision? I think that we used to have a coaches. Coaches associate fraternity. We used to go to the nationals. We used to sit together, we used to have meetings. How to make the game better. Yeah. [00:58:52] Speaker B: Doesn't exist. [00:58:53] Speaker A: We don't do that anymore because our coaches feel like whatever we decide doesn't matter because it's going to go on to this committee and that committee, and they're going to shoot it down. So. And we're like, aren't we supposed to be the experts on our game in this country? But we're not being treated like that. So everything that we put forward doesn't make it to the next level. Because maybe it's resources, maybe it's like, it can't happen, right? But at least we know why. Like, tell us why it doesn't work. Right? And how can we. What can we do? Or what are the chances, what are the options that we have to make it. Make it work or do something in the meantime? Like, fundraising now is a big part of what we do. If you're a Canadian coach, you're fundraising. That's part of the job. [00:59:36] Speaker B: What does that look like? [00:59:37] Speaker A: It's crazy. Everybody wants the dollar. Everybody's fundraising. Right. Like, you look at camps, everybody runs a cap the camp. The camp market is saturated. Like, why should I choose your camp over this camp? So you're fighting that, and so how are you. Raising money is a big part of it. Right? And so you become more of a fundraiser than you do a coach. And I think when I left Ottawa U. I felt like, I can't keep raising money because I'm not coaching. I'm tired of raising money. I want to coach. [01:00:04] Speaker B: Focus on what you're doing. [01:00:05] Speaker A: Right. And so McGill gave me that option. Right. And so. But, you know, as time goes by, things change. We're at a point now where schools are losing money because they can't get international kids into school. They've cut the number of international students. So we're not dealing with the same pot of money that you were dealing with, because schools make money on international students, and so they're losing money. And you're watching McGill cut programs because they're losing money that they would normally get. And so us as coaches, we may not know all that. We don't know the financial crisis that's going on right now. And so we're like, give it, Give me this, give me this, give me this. And my guy's telling me, I can't, I can't, I can't. But I don't know why. And if you're telling me we can't, we can't, we can't. Then how do we get around that? We can't, we can't, we can't. And so your. Your relationship with your ad is critical. Right? And you got to have the conversation again. Candid, open, honest, transparent conversations. [01:01:05] Speaker B: The funny thing is, this podcast was supposed to just touch on youth Sports nil. [01:01:10] Speaker A: I killed it. [01:01:11] Speaker B: No, I love this. I think I'm gonna change the title to be like, what is wrong with you Sports. [01:01:15] Speaker A: Okay. [01:01:16] Speaker B: I think that's what. [01:01:17] Speaker A: Like, I don't know if that's the right approach about what's wrong with you sport. I think it's, how do we make. [01:01:20] Speaker B: You sports better Sports? Yeah. [01:01:22] Speaker A: How do we make it better? I think that is the direction I think we want to go in. It's not what's wrong with it. We know it's a money thing. It's a financial thing. How do we make it better with the limitations that we have? [01:01:32] Speaker B: Yeah. And I just gotta sell podcast clicks, you know? But you mentioned expanding the Final eight. I want to get your thoughts on that. What would you like to see? [01:01:43] Speaker A: 12. [01:01:44] Speaker B: Give me your dream. 12, 12 teams. How does it look like for you? [01:01:47] Speaker A: Like, the biggest thing is, why don't we have, like, why can't we go 16, right. It's because finances, like, you're staying an extra. It's an extra day or extra two days of hotel and meals and different things like that. Back in the day, when Halifax had the national championships, they had sponsors. You go to the nationals, your meals were taken care of, your hotel rooms were taken care of. It was a different animal, and it was a big event. Athletes retreated so. So well. But they had sponsorship out east and Halifax, they had sponsorships and you were bidding on hosting. And the cost to host was a fair price, but people were paying it. Now they're having a tough time getting hosts, I think. [01:02:27] Speaker B: I don't know if it's the same five hosts. I see. [01:02:30] Speaker A: Right. People have money and. But the price is not. The price has gone down dramatically in terms of wanting to be a host, but you don't have the sponsors. So now you got to pay for your hotels. Now you got to pay for your meals. And so it's a different animal. So when I think when ads look at this and they make a decision not to expand it, it's because of money. They're not thinking about how we can make it better. It's how we survive. And so me wanting at 16 is thinking the betterment of the game. But 16 is not reality. So I'm like, well, how do I make it real? And 12 to me makes it real. [01:03:05] Speaker B: Because it's middle ground. [01:03:07] Speaker A: You're adding one. I think you're adding one day. I think I've worked it out. I've had a whole plan for it. I love this. You're adding. You're adding one more day of state. But now we used to, you know, used to be Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and teams used to go out Wednesday, Thursday. Now every team goes out on a Monday or Tuesday. So we're all going out there early. Right. If you can get four more teams in this and make it a bigger event, I think. I think every coach would go for it. Every basketball program, I think. Can you still make it financially feasible for teams to do it? Yeah. [01:03:37] Speaker B: Is there one rule you would change about esports? [01:03:40] Speaker A: One rule? Oh, wow. [01:03:43] Speaker B: I don't know. One that you. [01:03:44] Speaker A: I would think they allowing us to use that pot of money that everybody has to our own discretion. So if I want to give you a Full scholarship. [01:03:51] Speaker B: I'll take it. [01:03:51] Speaker A: I'll play right now. I'll give it to you. Right. [01:03:53] Speaker B: I'm available in January, but I know. [01:03:55] Speaker A: But I know if I give you 15, I only got this amount of money for like nine other guys or 10 other guys, right. So it's how you use your money. But I think having that option keeps a guy like a great player at home. I'm going to school in Canada for free. It changes everything, right? And so I think that would be the one rule that I would probably change. [01:04:17] Speaker B: Just touching on the nil part again, do you think just like, obviously recruitment has changed, we talked about that. But does selling like a guy like you're here for one year and then you're out, does that like turn like, is that ruining you sports in a way, in your opinion, like turning into like a one year type of like league type for guys? [01:04:38] Speaker A: I don't know if it's ruining, but it's, that's where we're at. So I have to adapt to the environment that's been created. It hasn't been created by you sport, but that's the environment that's out there, right? And the basketball environment tells you that every kid wants to play Division 1 basketball or Division 2, whatever they want to go, right? They don't want to pay for school, they want to get the best basketball experience. And so I don't think youth sports is created, it's just the way the basketball environment is. And so how do we grow? How do we change? How do we adapt? How do we get to that level where we make it better for a kid to stay home? Like, how do we make it better for a kid to stay home? [01:05:15] Speaker B: Are you hopeful? Just kind of want to end off with that asking you. [01:05:17] Speaker A: That's a great question. [01:05:18] Speaker B: Do you think like, and when you hang it up, I don't know if it's anytime soon. Maybe you want to drop an exclusive. Tell us, tell us when that, when that's going to be. But are you hopeful for, for youth sports, basketball, when you look at it in the future, where it's headed and your thoughts, because you obviously give so much, so many, like I think you're preaching, like I said, preach to the choir. Like a lot of people have these. [01:05:39] Speaker A: Thoughts, but I ask you, who has these thoughts, like how many people in actuality care about you sport basketball, right? [01:05:48] Speaker B: Put my hand up. [01:05:48] Speaker A: But you're, you're a loyal guy, you're a basketball guy. And so these are conversations I have with my colleagues and My other coaches, I'm like, does anybody actually care besides us and a few diehard fans like yourself? So are we just, you know, are we making all these comments? Are we beating our head against the pavement? And actually nobody cares whether U sports is this or U sports is that right? And so I think that's my first question. And in terms of do I see it getting better? I mean, I've been doing this for a long time and I haven't seen much growth. I think we got to a point where I thought it was going to go and then it kind of just went back. Like we took three steps forward and then we took three back again and then we're kind of stuck right now in the mud. And how do we. I don't know if we're going to move forward. Right. The, you know, the opportunity to give out full tuition, I mean, I think we're beyond that now. We have to find a way to take it to another level where we can give up full scholarships. [01:06:47] Speaker B: Yeah. Dave, I can't thank you enough for coming on the podcast. I feel like this was a much needed discussion beyond just nil, just esports, basketball, the landscape in general. And yeah, I'm excited to, to watch TMU this, this season. I will come out to some January games, schedule it in my book. And yeah, just can't thank you enough for just this honest, unfiltered conversation. I think much needed. I think a lot of people in the community, like I said, people I talk to feel this way and maybe this podcast just like brings the conversation forward where we can talk about this openly, what is wrong, what we could fix, what's the good parts? Because I think there's a lot of good parts about esports. [01:07:29] Speaker A: Absolutely. [01:07:30] Speaker B: We didn't touch on a lot of it. [01:07:31] Speaker A: That's right. But absolutely. [01:07:32] Speaker B: There's some, there's some. That's why I keep coming out to games. [01:07:34] Speaker A: Right. [01:07:34] Speaker B: Because that's where my love, honestly for, for basketball expanded even more. So. Yeah, I can't thank you enough. Any last thoughts? [01:07:42] Speaker A: Appreciate it. I think that you're, you're right on it. I think that there's a lot of good things that we haven't talked about today. But I think there's a way to make it better. And I think maybe everybody, all the stakeholders getting together and sitting down at the table and trying to figure out ways to make it better would be a great, a great, a great thing for everyone to make it happen and appreciate it. Look forward to seeing you at our games and all Our alum at our games and you know, we're doing some pretty neat things at tmu. We're just trying to keep it going and going and build on what coach, Coach Roy did and coach PT did while they were there. [01:08:16] Speaker B: I, I said this, I say this to every guest. I need courtside tickets for some games. [01:08:22] Speaker A: That's an easy one. Okay, that's an easy one. [01:08:24] Speaker B: I say it to every guest. [01:08:25] Speaker A: If I see you at a game and I'll see you courtside, I'm going to look over at Jeremy and say, hey, Jeremy, what's going on? [01:08:29] Speaker B: Yeah, Joe Anthony, Jeremy said he's got me, so I'm gonna text you. I'm text, I'll be like, I need some tickets. Joe Anthony said he's got me on some Montreal lines. [01:08:37] Speaker A: Good, good. [01:08:38] Speaker B: So I gotta go out to Montreal. [01:08:39] Speaker A: I think you got a great voice. Voice like what you're doing with these podcasts. There needs to be more. Like if we're going to get some change, it needs to be voices in podcasts like this because I think the, the potential is unlimited and what we can do and where we can go, like, like change is, change is difficult for everybody. Right? Change is the hardest thing. But if you don't push forward and you don't have people advocating for it, it's not going to happen. And so I think this, these kind of podcasts and these kinds of conversations are healthy. I think we need more of it. [01:09:08] Speaker B: You heard it from Dave. Go, if you haven't already, leave a rating. Leave us Apple on Spotify, Give us five stars. You know the deal. Dave, I, I knew you from your McGill days. I think I interviewed you once back then and I just remembered how like I'd watch your post game interviews that you would do. I think it was going up with the mic and chatting with the reporters afterwards, I was like, I know he's a great talker, I gotta get him on the pod. But this podcast blew my mind. [01:09:37] Speaker A: I appreciate that. [01:09:38] Speaker B: Blew my mind. Just so happy to have you on and yeah, much needed discussion, like I said and hopefully a lot of people will be listening to this and we're gonna elevate it even more. So yeah, let's do it. Let's do it. [01:09:51] Speaker A: Appreciate it. [01:09:52] Speaker B: This has been the Canadian Basketball show, your go to spot for the latest news stories and analysis on Canadian basketball. I'm your host Lee Ben Osman with my guy Dave and we out.