Who should be the next head coach of Canada Basketball?

[00:00:01] Speaker A: Welcome to Canadian Basketball show, your newest go to spot for the latest news, stories and analysis on Canadian basketball. I'm your host, Lee Ben Osman. On today's show, we're discussing a topic that's been on my mind for some time now. The current vacant position as head coach of the Canadian senior men's national team. If you don't know, in early February, Canada Basketball announced that Jordy Fernandez informed the program that he will not be seeking to extend his contract. Jordy coached a team at a 2023 FIBA World cup in this past Olympics where Canada lost in the quarterfinals to France, who went on to the finals but end up losing to the USA Basketball. In the statement Canada Basketball released, Jordy said he was grateful for the opportunity, but highlighted he wanted to focus on prioritizing, balancing his new job with the Brooklyn Nets and time with his family. So that leaves Canada Basketball looking for a new head coach. Nick Nurse stepped down ahead of the 2023 Fiber World cup to also focus on his job with the Philadelphia 76ers. I'll be honest with you, that looks like an amazing decision considering what's going on in Philly right now. But to talk about the current vacant position and potential candidates for the job, I have my guy, Orin Weisfeld, writer at large and someone that also covers Canadian basketball in depth to talk things through with me. My guy Orin, welcome to the show. How you doing, my guy? [00:01:22] Speaker B: I'm doing well. Thanks for having me, bro. Congratulations. First of all, dap up right here. [00:01:27] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:01:28] Speaker B: Very proud of you for getting the show off the ground because we talked about it a long time ago and good to see it come to life. And like you said in the intro episode, man, we need this space so badly. So I know it's something both me and you have kind of tried to work to fill a little bit, but definitely multimedia podcast specifically directed at Canadian basketball. I'm really happy to see you pull it off, man. Congrats. [00:01:55] Speaker A: I appreciate you so much. But we got some important stuff to discuss. I kind of want to start off with the Jordy news from February. What was your reaction when you found out that Jordy wasn't coming back? [00:02:08] Speaker B: Yeah. So quick story time. Going back to the game against France in the Olympics. I watched that at a little watch party that, you know, the hello and welcome people. Will, Alex and Jerome shout out hello and welcome. Hello, friends. So I was there watching that with them, and Will had me on the pod, like on the react pod right after. Obviously, like, wasn't prepared at all. But he just put me on the spot and asked, do you think Jordy will be back? And at the time, I said yes. Like, Jordy really impressed me as a person and as a coach. Like, I was lucky to be around that team a lot in the lead up to the 24 Olympics. And I think the team really took on his identity just as like a professional, no nonsense guy who knew a lot about fiba, knew how to put guys in their roles, stuff like that. So I thought, yeah, Jordy impressed me. I know we'll get a little bit more into his tenure. But at first I was like, why wouldn't you want to bring a guy like that back for what he was asked to do, for the challenge he had, and for what he pulled off? You know, overall, I think he did a good job. But then after that, had more conversations with people around the program, people close to the players, and learned that, like, of course, some people weren't happy about the decisions he made, especially in that France game, just in terms of the, the limited roles. Certain guys had minutes certain guys might have had that maybe they, they didn't deserve based on their play. So once those kind of rumblings started to come out, just about how there was certain players in different parts of the organization who weren't so happy, then, okay, it, it made a lot more sense that I wasn't so surprised when the decision that, that he stepped down came out. And plus, you know, as you mentioned, he has two young kids right now. He just took a job coaching the Brooklyn Nets. So I know for him this is like, more than anything a family thing, a work life balance thing. And he honestly deserves it after, like, when you're grinding your way up to become an NBA head coach, like, that is a lot of hours. So he deserves a little bit of time off in the summers. [00:04:09] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I agree with you. I was just shocked of the sort of mixed messaging when he first came back to face the Raptors with Brooklyn in Toronto. I was hearing during that time that he was gone 100%. I was kind of shocked to hear that they were kind of doing this little dance of, well, will he come back? Will he not? And then eventually the statement comes out that it's him stepping down. When I think me and you both would agree, I think this is more of a mutual decision. [00:04:40] Speaker B: No, Yeah, I think it's more of a mutual decision. Like I said, not everyone was happy with what went down in the Olympics, particularly the French game, but obviously there's some stuff in the lead up to that. So probably a mutual decision in the sense that if Jordi wasn't like 100%, I need it, then Canada basketball was probably also the same way. And also, like, you have to think from Canada Basketball's perspective, right. They are now in a position of leverage which they've never had before. And we're going to get into future candidates. Like, now they can go out and basically ask whoever the top coaches in the world are, because those coaches want this job now. And that wasn't a thing in 2019, even in 2021. So, you know, it's a little bit different in terms of when you can scour the whole world for the best possible coaches. Maybe it's not something where like, we're desperate to keep Jordy. So, yeah, in terms of. In terms of how exactly that went down, I don't exactly know. But I kind of agree with you on the. On the mixed messaging. I interviewed Jordi for the book, which you forgot to plug. But don't worry, I'm going to plug. [00:05:53] Speaker A: It in at the end, man. [00:05:56] Speaker B: I interviewed Jordy at some point in the next season and I was like, so, like, I know you can't tell me specifics, but like, are you coming back to Canada Basketball? And his answer was basically like, no matter if I come back or if I don't, the players need to stay committed. So obviously I took that as like a. Okay, that's not great. That's not great news. [00:06:18] Speaker A: Yeah. I want to say this quote that I have from Jordy when he came back to face the Raptors in his pre game press conference, and I was kind of shocked. I didn't take this quote that serious until the announcement that he was stepping down. But now listening to it back, I kind of look at a different perspective. And this response was like two minutes long. So I'm just going to give you a short part of it. He said, I've been part of the best programs in the history of the national teams, mentioning Spain, and when you win for 20 years, there's going to be adversity. And when you hit adversity, if you deflect and point fingers, you're not going to win. And I mentioned that quote when I think a lot of stuff happened this summer where there was finger pointing of what went wrong. What's your thoughts on that? [00:07:04] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, it's. It's actually very similar to the quote I was just mentioning that. That he said to me, which was. I just said a part of it, but he said the players need to commit. And the reason he said that, like, the context he said in was like, going back to the Spanish national team. There's always going to be years where a certain guy can't play because an injury or contract status or, you know, you have a really bad loss, and it's hard to rebound for that. And what he saw in Spain was that even when one guy was out, the rest of the corps stayed together. And that's just how it worked. Those guys passed down the knowledge to the younger guys, and then the younger guys started to fill in those veteran roles as they moved up and passed down the knowledge to the younger guys and so on and so forth. So I think when he's talking about not pointing fingers and not deflecting and he's talking about what's happened in Spain, it's. It's because he knows, like, this is. These are NBA players we're dealing with. Like, I remember one coach said to me, something was like, I was asking him about a Canadian player, actually, and he was like, the guys who are sitting on the bench in the NBA, the ninth men playing 10 minutes, they feel the exact same way that when, you know, I was at oakwood and the 10th man on the Oakwood bench wasn't playing. Like, these guys don't feel any different. Yeah, they're making millions of dollars, but, like, there's a level of pride, there's a level of competitiveness. When you're at the Olympics and you're sitting, obviously guys aren't going to be happy. It doesn't matter. The program doesn't matter. The coach. Right, doesn't matter. So I think all Jordy's trying to say is that, like, this is an inflection point for the program. Either this group stays together for the next four years where they're all going to be in their peak age to compete for a gold medal, or guys start going, well, I should have been playing more, he should have been playing less, blah, blah, blah. And it ruins the chemistry and the vibe, and guys don't come back year after year. So I think that's all he's saying is, like, the guys need to choose. This isn't up to a coach. It's not up to a gm. The players have the power here to be like, either we're staying in this and doing it together and there's no ego, and we're putting our ego to the side and, yeah, I might not play much this game, but whatever, or we going to let those egos get in the way and Ruin the country's best chance to win an Olympic medal four years from now. [00:09:29] Speaker A: Yeah. And when you talk about pride, ego, I think you have to have that as an NBA player. Right. To get to that point to be a top player. [00:09:37] Speaker B: Right. [00:09:38] Speaker A: So I don't blame a lot of those guys. You obviously want to be playing. The Jamal Murray situation, I thought was very puzzling at the time. When we talked about it. I remember us discussing it on hello and welcome podcast. But after finding out some more information, and I'm guessing you found out some more information just about how that situation was dealt with. What's your. What's your thoughts on the Jamal Murray situation? [00:10:01] Speaker B: I'll give you some stuff from the book. You know, a little. A little teaser. Okay. That I got in there. [00:10:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:08] Speaker B: Like, at the end of the day. And Jordy told me this on the record, too. Like, Jamal wasn't 100% healthy that whole summer. And, you know, he just said he was banged up at certain points and he was working to get his body right. So I think it all stemmed from that. Right. It wasn't anything where, like, it wasn't a fit on the court or anything like that. It was just the fact that Jamal was coming off a long season in the NBA where he had multiple injuries. And when he arrived in Canada's camp, he was still working his way into shape. [00:10:44] Speaker A: And he does that often, too, during the season. You could say he did that during the regular season. Now he's playing some amazing basketball. [00:10:52] Speaker B: Obviously, he didn't fly with the team from Vegas to the Olympics. He joined them a few days late. Cause he had a personal matter. And at that point they had exhibition games. They played France in Orleans, Orleans, Orleans. And the coaching staff decided to start Lou in his place. And as they were working up to the actual Olympics, Jamal was still kind of wanting to ramp up his minutes right to where he could kind of play his best basketball by the time they got to the medal rounds or the quarterfinal rounds. So they decided to keep Lou in the starting lineup because their whole scheme was ball pressure. It was about speeding the opponents up by getting into their guards. And Lou does that better than anyone. Greece has a point guard named Nick Kalathis, and he kind of sets up their whole offense. So they figured, all right, for this game, we're going to get Lou to guard him and just kind of shut their offense down that way. Lou did a really, really good job. I think he. KalaThis had like four points and a few assists. And basically the coaching staff was like And Jordy obviously made these decisions, but it was like, we're just going to stay with this. What's working. [00:12:03] Speaker A: Yeah. I heard also he was promised starting role, which I'd love to get your thoughts on that. But I can also say, like, I don't think the chemistry between him and Shay was there. Even when we'd walk in as media after to speak to the players, the responses, just about how those two would gel together was kind of like. It didn't seem like they were on the same page from my perspective. I'll be real with you. [00:12:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:32] Speaker A: I remember a quote where Shay said it sounded funny at the time where he was like, I pass, he shoots. But I feel like there should be more to that. No. And I do think when you have a guy like Jamal, I think a lot of people would think he's never come off the bench in his life. [00:12:49] Speaker B: Right. [00:12:50] Speaker A: So having him come off the bench, something new to him completely. How would that even work? So, yeah, the whole situation is weird, but I'm just trying to figure out too, like, where does that relationship stand now? [00:13:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:05] Speaker A: I personally think. I don't think he ever plays again for the national team. I'm gonna sit on the record. I don't think he ever plays again. [00:13:09] Speaker B: Yeah. I hope that's not true. Right. Like, I don't know, because at the end of the day, people can say that now, but three years from now in Los Angeles, 2028, when you're at the peak of your career and you know it's your last chance, like, are you really gonna let, like, drama and pride from when you were four years younger and now you have more time to brew on it and you're more mature? Like, are you gonna let that get in the way of an Olympics? [00:13:37] Speaker A: Like, that's a good point. [00:13:38] Speaker B: I just. I'll believe it when I see it. But in terms of on the court, fit with Shane, Jamal. Yeah. It never came together. Like, the whole team never found a chemistry. I know they went 30 in the group stage against really good teams, but. But I never felt like that team, like, really came together, really grew throughout the tournament, really got better throughout the tournament, and really found, like, just a chemistry where everything was clicking and everyone was bought into the role. Like, not even to speak on those two individually because they didn't even share the court that much. But generally with the team, it never came together. [00:14:19] Speaker A: Yeah. And I also just think back to right after that, Jamal was up for an extension. I think most teams. Denver was in a situation where I Think they had to pay him. I think he deserved the money, honestly. But he could have lost a lot of money. If you're another team and you're wondering, should I pay him based off this Olympics performance? So that might be on his mind just about how things were handled. Right. And whether or not he was promised a starting role or not. That's between them. They know that. That's what I heard. But getting back to Jordy, do you think Jordy's still the head coach of the national team if they leave the Olympics with a medal? [00:14:59] Speaker B: Probably. Because if you get a medal, it heals all wounds. And at that point they probably, you know, unload the Brinks truck for him. More or less. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, short answer is probably. But even then, if, if it really, you know, and I do believe it was like mostly just about his family and about having some more work life balance, then yeah, maybe not. I don't know. [00:15:29] Speaker A: I, I definitely agree that I think he wanted to focus on Brooklyn's job. But like, I remember him telling me too that Brooklyn supported him. Like Josiah, the owner, supported him. Sean Marks played with the New Zealand national team, supported him. So it's kind of, you know, like it's backwards thinking that I'm like, was this a Brooklyn decision or that's why I'm like, it's a mutual decision. That's I think we can agree on. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. How would you describe Jordy Fernandez's tenure with the Canada basketball? [00:16:01] Speaker B: Yeah, it's very good. Like I know people are down right now on the program because recency bias and, and what happened in the game against France. But when you look back on it, I would say this is pretty objectively the best four year quad in the history of the Canadian men's national team. And that includes like they won, they, sorry, they placed fourth at the Olympics a couple times back in like the 80s. Those are like amateur teams. Pros weren't allowed to play literally. So like given the context of like who they were playing and like the level that like international basketball has got to winning a bronze medal at a world championships and then placing fifth in the Olympics the year later, it's unequivocally the best the national team has ever done. And Jordy was literally dropped in that a month before training camp for the 23 Olympics. So yeah, like he did everything he could. I know there's a lot of Canadian fans who are like, well, we had the most, the second most NBA players. We should have won silver. At least we should, you know, like, that's the way they think about FIBA basketball. That's not how it works. Like, finishing fifth at this Olympics despite the talent Canada had is kind of what you would expect. Like, th. These games just happen where sometimes things go well, sometimes things go wrong. You can't expect to like, medal every time unless you are the usa. They are an exception to the rule. Every other team needs to build with continuity, with years of experience, with so many things that, you know, end up being like the. The kind of things that determine success in FUBA basketball. And for Jory to be dropped into a program that didn't even have that many of those things and to win. Yeah, I think he did a great job. [00:17:49] Speaker A: I just think about the passion that he had. I could like, I consider him like an honorary Canadian now, to be honest. He enjoyed it and you could tell that this meant so much to him. He repeated it so much too, just how much Canada basketball helped him land a job with the Brooklyn Nets. So he's forever grateful for that. And then I was just thinking about where I was when Canada beat USA at the FIBA World Cup. I was in a museum in Spain, Barcelona, on vacation. And I was on my phone watching the game. Like, they got me doing that, you know, just to watch what's going on. And then what him, what Dylan Brooks, Shane Co. Did, like, they brought the Avengers to come win the olympics. That's Jordan Co. [00:18:33] Speaker B: It's true. I cried when they beat Spain and qualified for the olympics for the first time in 24 years. Yeah, I cried in my basement. [00:18:40] Speaker A: I don't know. That's the first time. [00:18:41] Speaker B: No, no. The first time they qualified for the Olympics. Cried maybe a handful of times. But yeah, like, Jordy, it's a good point. Like he. He made a point to like learn the national anthem. All that stuff is nice. But like, what he did that will pay dividends for the program is he always took like a very long term approach. He brought a lot of the qualities from the Spanish program here just in terms of like preaching to the guys, like, hey, it's nice that you guys are here for the Olympic year. That's cool and all. But like, you can't expect this to keep happening if you're not showing up for the qualifying years, if you're not showing up for the World cup years. He made it a point to hammer the importance of continuity and playing in the windows and all that stuff. He made it a point to get Canadian coaches staffed on the junior national teams because Ramon is the head coach of the U19 team, also a Spanish international, also close with Jordi. But Ramon told me like one of the calls he had after he got the job was Jordy being like, no, you're not bringing any of your Spanish or Mexican coaches, which is where he works. Like, you're not doing that just to try to like get a little leg up and win a medal. This is long term. You're about developing Canadian coaches. You're only staffing your staff with Canadian coaches. So stuff like that I really respect Jordy for because he took a long term approach with it always. [00:20:07] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't necessarily even blame that France loss. Looking back, I was kind of like, it happened. They didn't have the size. Yeah, we. Selli is a beast. I'm watching RJ try to guard him. I'm like, no hope. [00:20:18] Speaker B: Like, you know, you said that because I had to re watch that game like for book research. And I was like, yeah, this team's actually just like very talented. [00:20:25] Speaker A: Yes. [00:20:25] Speaker B: Think about it. That team, everyone was down at the time because they didn't have a good group stage. That team won silver and gave. And we watched that game together. Steph Curry, Curry hitting threes over Gobel, like, gave USA a fright. Like, France was good, man. [00:20:40] Speaker A: They could have won gold. [00:20:41] Speaker B: They almost won gold. So, yeah, like, there's no shame in that. Obviously Canada had more talented players, but the France as a team, as a unit, as a cohesive unit, they were just better. [00:20:52] Speaker A: Let's talk about the current search now. What have you heard? Just about what's going on and names maybe in the mix or where they're at right now in and hiring a new head coach. [00:21:03] Speaker B: I think they're pretty deep into the process for sure. I think they've whittled it down to one or two names and I think they're going to make that decision very soon. We're recording now at the end of March. I know this is going to come out like April 8, so hopefully not too much changes, but I think by that time, yeah, for sure. Like, they're, they're already pretty deep into the stages with kind of just hammering out the details with one or two coaches and so I think, yeah, it's. It's going to be determined very soon. [00:21:35] Speaker A: We'll talk about those names in a bit. Main challenges though, for this next head coach that comes in. [00:21:40] Speaker B: We talked about it. Honestly, in my opinion, it's. It's some of the stuff that Jordi was saying in that quote. It's like, how do you how do you get a bunch of NBA players who can't all play because there's not enough room for them? We have 24 NBA players. These guys all want to be on the team. Only seven or eight are going to play minutes when it counts. And when you're down in like the dumps and you need a win in these key metal games. So how do you keep all these guys happy knowing that only seven or eight guys are going to get minutes when it counts? I think that's really is the challenge is like, how do you get a buy in from so many NBA players to come to camp, to show up for the windows, to show up for the World cup when those guys know they might not make the Olympic team or that or they might not play a lot of minutes in the Olympics? And that comes to like, comes down to like a pride thing. It comes back to like nationalism. It comes back to like things that are bigger than you. It's not the NBA. It's not a business. It's putting all that stuff aside just to like, try to help the country make history. And so someone who can communicate that, I think, and who can really develop good relationships with these players, that's the biggest challenge. [00:22:59] Speaker A: Yeah. I was telling Rowan Barrett not too long ago when I was on call with him. I don't envy the position that he's in because you have to try to get all these guys. I know he's working around the clock to get them to commit, but I think also just starts up top with Shai. If Shai wants to play. And I know he's committed in the past and I know he's expressed his commitment in the future. I think if he's leading the ship, I think a lot of guys follow suit. And I think that's where it starts for me. [00:23:29] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I agree. And that's why I am optimistic about the program is because by all accounts, Shai is very committed to this thing. And obviously you don't know with injuries or contracts, like anything could happen, of course, but as of right now, he is as committed as anyone. He's taking it upon his shoulders to be the leader that this team just hasn't had since, you know, Steve Nash and Rowan Barrett. He's taking that upon his shoulders to really lead this team and get them together. There's a story in the CBC about how he brought a group of them together after the Olympics in Toronto. I heard that he's going to be in camp for parts of the America training camp this summer. Even though Obviously he's not going to play in the America, but yeah, I mean, I agree. As long as, as long as Sheikh remains committed to this thing, they're going to be in a position of, to win. And, and, and like, maybe, maybe they'll leave this, but maybe I'll get to this. But like there's pressure on this thing too, right? Like goes back to challenges if you don't meddle in 27, 28, whatever it is. If you end that quad on a down note, like there's no telling when the next Shay Gilgis Alexander is coming along. Yeah. It took 24 years between, you know, like Steve Nash and a Shay Gilgis Alexander Canadians to be at the top of the league. So there's a lot of pressure on this thing to get it done like this quad because after this you just don't know when that next superstar is going to come along. [00:25:05] Speaker A: We kind of touched on commitment. Should Canada demand a three year commitment like they have in the past? What are your thoughts on that? [00:25:13] Speaker B: Yeah, short answer is yes. We'll get into it more with the specific coaches because I think they all are going to ask for different things. You're now in a position of power. I said it like you have leverage with the head coach. You also have leverage with the players. If you're Canada basketball, you can say we demand a three year commitment. Some guys are going to say no, but guess What? You have 24 NBA players to choose from. Enough of them are going to say yes. And I really think like continuity is the most important thing. So yeah, I think, I think at least a two year commitment. 27, 28. And then guys should ideally be in at least camp in 26. But definitely some sort of commitment is necessary. [00:25:52] Speaker A: I have a counterpoint to that. Just to play devil's advocate. And I don't think this is gonna happen. All right. Just say Zach Eaty says, I'm not committing. I don't wanna spend my summers or whatever it is. Obviously I don't think this is gonna happen. He's a seven foot four, big man. [00:26:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:09] Speaker A: Desperately needed. [00:26:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:11] Speaker A: What do you say to that? When the Olympics come and you're looking for a guy like that, do you still. Because we've seen them. [00:26:19] Speaker B: Okay. My counterpoint to that is that they did the exact same thing at the Olympics this year. They allowed Andrew Wiggins to come even though he didn't end up coming. They allowed Andrew Nemesis. [00:26:28] Speaker A: What's the point of a three point. [00:26:29] Speaker B: Allowed Trey Lyles to come. Right. All these guys who didn't commit. They allowed to come and guess what? They didn't win at the Olympics. [00:26:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:26:34] Speaker B: So if the argument is like we gotta get our most talented players and take that over continuity when the Olympics comes, my counterpoint would be we literally did that in 24 and it didn't work. [00:26:45] Speaker A: I agree with that. I just, I just think Zachy needs a different situation. Like you can swap Wiggins. [00:26:50] Speaker B: That's a tough one. [00:26:51] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a tough one. [00:26:51] Speaker B: We have no other players that, that are built like him, so he's definitely a one on one. But like you said, I don't think it's going to come down to that. [00:27:00] Speaker A: Yeah, I just, I love the idea of a three year commitment, but I'm also like, like sometimes you got to throw the window out. Right. Like they did the summer for certain guys. [00:27:09] Speaker B: Right. [00:27:09] Speaker A: It didn't work out. But like if Zach E. Says I'm not, I'm not suing up till the Olympics. Zach Giddy. Yes, sir. You're coming to the Olympics. I don't care about anything else. But I want to take a quick little break before we get into some potential names as head coach. Stay with us. You're listening to Canadian Basketball Show. I'm your host, Lee Ben Osman. [00:27:34] Speaker B: Foreign. [00:27:42] Speaker A: Welcome back to the Canadian Basketball Show. I'm your host, Lee Ban Osmond. We're discussing the search for the new head coach of the senior men's national team. My guy Oren. I gave you some homework, asked you to give me a few potential candidates Canada Basketball should consider. Let me hear your first name. [00:28:00] Speaker B: All right, first name. I'll go with Gordy Herbert, who obviously sportsnets Michael Grange reported was favorite for this. [00:28:10] Speaker A: Shout out to Grange. [00:28:11] Speaker B: Shout out to Grange. Yeah, but I also think from the stuff I'm hearing that it's not clear cut right now, that there's, as I was saying at the beginning, there's a couple favorites still, but Gordy is definitely one of them and for good reason, obviously, like for people that don't know about him. He recently won gold with the German national team at the aforementioned World cup where Canada finished third, Germany beat the USA in the semifinals and then Serbia in the finals to, to win that World Cup. Obviously a crazy achievement considering they had like two or three NBA players on the team. Gordy grew up in a small town in bc, played hockey, eventually got into hoop, went to juco in Idaho and then went the NCAA route, started playing professionally overseas, had some knee injuries and basically got into coaching. And his whole dream growing up as soon as he got into basketball was, you know, kind of similar to a lot of players back then in the 70s and 80s was he wanted to represent Canada and play for Canada basketball, which he did. He went to an Olympics with Canada in 84, I believe. So obviously in some ways this would be a dream job for him. Right. Like a guy who grew up in a small town in B.C. and back when the NBA was a distant dream, a lot of Canadian basketball players just wanted to make it to the national team and represent Canada at an Olympics. So Gordy got to do that, obviously, as a player. Eventually he became a coach, had a lot of success in Europe. And know, Gordy actually has a very interesting history. Okay. In 2005, Leo Romans was hired to be the head coach. Gordy was the next man up. In 2009, Nick 19, Nick Nurse was hired a head coach. Gordy was the next man out. Both times he interviewed for the job, both times he was the guy who just didn't get it. In 2019, he agreed, even though he didn't get it, to be the associate head coach for Nick Nurse. So he coached in a couple of the windows leading up to that. And then he coached at the World cup in 2019 alongside Nurse, and then he also was there in 2021 in Victoria alongside Nurse, which was obviously the heartbreaking game against the Czech Republic. Ton of familiarity with the Canadian program. Obviously, great FIBA coach who's been in Germany, won a Euro cup in Germany, now is in Bayern Munich, a EUROLEAGUE team, one of the best teams in the world. So he has a ton of feedback experience. He knows what he wants, he knows how to run a program, he knows international basketball. I will say real quick before asking you your thoughts, like, there is a con with Gordy, right? Because I just read a great resume. Obviously, the big con is that he doesn't know this generation of players. He was around back in. In the 2000s. Like, he was around in 2019. But in terms of, like, what, Yeah, I call the golden, golden generation. Like the shades, the RJs, the Andrew Nehard, the Dylan Brooks. Like, he has not been around these guys. Right. Like, a lot of the coaches we're going to talk about have been around these guys, coach them on their way up through the junior nets, whatever. Gordy saw a couple of them in 2019, a couple of them for a couple weeks in 2021, but he does not have relationships with these players. So I think that is kind of the one mark or downside of his resume is just compared to a lot of the other candidates, he is not as close with these players. [00:31:43] Speaker A: Yeah, you gave a long resume for. For Gordy. I kind of got bored, but that's how long it is. Like, he's been there, he's done it. I listened to a podcast he did called X's and O's, and he sounds exactly. How Canada has shifted since he left the national team program and how they're. We're thinking about three year commitments. We talked about the goal every year to get to the podium. Canada has said it multiple times. That's the goal. Get to the podium. Get to the podium. He talked about how in the first eight to nine months of his job, when he takes over is just meeting with the players, getting to know the players. So I think that's something that he'll. He'll do if he becomes the head coach and something that I found very interesting. He talked about how he focuses more on offense than defense as a coach because it's just short windows and defense. It's gonna. Offense you can't really control. I believe he said so just having a foundation is very important. And I was talking to a coach who mentioned Gordy as one of the top two candidates, and he kind of. I was kind of asking him, like, can you sell me? But why? Why should he be the person? And he was like, if you're looking at the window for the 2028 World Olympics and you want to win, he's the most qualified person for the job, and he's the one with the most experience. And Shay's the guy for that window. Obviously, Shay's gonna be your guy, and he has the most experience. And I was like, okay, I see that point. That's. That's why I would choose him if that's the thinking process. But like you mentioned the relationships, I think there's probably four or five people that have better relationship with players than he does. And he's also older. Let's be real. [00:33:37] Speaker B: He's older. [00:33:37] Speaker A: So how does he relate with some of these guys coming up and the style that he coaches, does it resonate with NBA players? Obviously, people think about that Dennis Schroeder moment, but from what I heard, too, he's had a lot of long relationships with those guys. So that stuff, obviously, I think he talked about how he regretted it, but that kind of stuff is like, he had the relationships in Germany. He doesn't have that really, in Canada. He's been here, probably knows some of the players, but that's my thoughts on just Gordy. It's like, if you want that window, I think if you're aiming for 2020, I think he's the guy. [00:34:16] Speaker B: I think Gordy is a little bit more old school than a lot of these other candidates in the sense that he knows what he wants. He wants. When he got to Germany, he said, I want a three year commitment. Isaiah Hartenstein couldn't do the first year because he was an NBA free agent. The best center in Germany. He said, you're out. Like, I don't care even if you come back next year. He kicked out the captain of six years and made Schroeder the captain. [00:34:39] Speaker A: Bold. [00:34:39] Speaker B: Yeah, like, he was strict about this stuff. And I assume he would do similar things in Canada because that is what he has learned is the best way to win in international basketball is continuity above talent, more or less. Get. Get as many guys in who are committed and go with them. So I think he is a little bit more strict and he is a little bit more old school. I forget what, what did you end up on? What were you asking me? [00:35:07] Speaker A: Just, will that work on NBA guys? [00:35:09] Speaker B: Yeah, that's the other thing. Like, he doesn't have a lot of experience with NBA guys compared to a lot of these candidates too. And that's something Canada basketball has always preached as, we want a coach who knows how to talk to NBA guys. So, yeah, that, that is definitely a side of it that he's been around a lot in Germany when he was with Canada, all that. But. But it's not like he's an NBA coach on the side. The only thing I would say to that is we are at a position again, where even if a couple of the NBA guys are like, I don't like your style. Like, to me, that's okay. [00:35:43] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm with that too. I'm like the, the guys that should have the relationship should be the assistant coaches where they're preaching the message of the head coach or whatever it is. [00:35:51] Speaker B: Right. [00:35:52] Speaker A: And those guys can tell and explain the message that Gordy has to the players. So second name on your list. Let me hear it. Who do you got as the second candidate? [00:36:08] Speaker B: Yeah, the other guy, I think has a real shot at this. And. And again, I don't think a decision has been made, but I think the other guy who, yeah, has a, has a chance is Jama Mahalela, who obviously we know well in Toronto. Shout out to Oakwood, an Oakwood man. Just like, just like your boy here. [00:36:30] Speaker A: Oakwood is not that good at basketball. [00:36:32] Speaker B: All right, we're pausing the podcast. [00:36:35] Speaker A: I'm joking. Did they win again this year? [00:36:38] Speaker B: That's a great question. [00:36:39] Speaker A: I think they did. [00:36:40] Speaker B: They three peated. [00:36:40] Speaker A: I think they might have three Pete. [00:36:41] Speaker B: And offset if they did. And we all know offices, office what counts. Nah, not anymore, naba. But Oakwood's a great basketball school just in terms of the amount of pros that are playing now who went to Oakwood and the amount of coaches. Because we're going to talk about another coach who went to Oakwood after this. Yeah, but Jama went to Oakwood, went to UBC after that to play ball, became a coach with the Raptors and became a player development coach there and just worked his way up the system, became the head coach in the 905 and then he was with Nick Nurse's staff. He went to Golden State to work with Steve Curry. Now he's obviously on Darko staff running the offense for the Toronto Raptors. The thing about Jama obviously is that he doesn't have FIBA experience and that's a big thing, right? Yeah. He spends most of or I don't know what he's doing in the summers, but a big part of his summer is with Giants of Africa. Always has been. He's close with the side of Jiri. He travels around Africa in the summers and puts on camps, opens courts, does a lot of that stuff. I know that's taken up a lot of his time in previous summers. So he's obviously not also coaching national teams. But with that being said, I'm sure he has a list of contacts who are international coaches. I'm sure he's close to a lot of that and I'm sure he's seen a lot of international basketball too when he's traveling around in the summers or FIBA basketball, I should say. So he, I guess last thing is like that's obviously the downside of his resume is the lack of FIBA experience. The plus is that he's a really good exes and O's coach and he has relationships even though he hasn't technically been part of Canada basketball. He's always around. He's always in the gym for training camp. He's been an NBA coach for forever and you just, you go to games, I go to games. He's always talking to the Canadian guys across the whole league. So he has really good relationships. [00:38:33] Speaker A: Yeah, I would say if you know Jama and I've spent maybe briefly time. Drew, remember that Raptors media game, the first one? [00:38:43] Speaker B: Right. [00:38:43] Speaker A: He was my coach. [00:38:44] Speaker B: Okay. The losing coach unfortunately. [00:38:46] Speaker A: And I was fasting during that and I was winning. But yeah, I was fasting during that game. So I was, you know, I wasn't, I wasn't really hooping. I gave you some buckets. No, you didn't fade away. [00:38:58] Speaker B: I tween, tween cross. I dunked on you. [00:39:00] Speaker A: Okay. [00:39:01] Speaker B: You remember that? [00:39:02] Speaker A: But Jama, I would, I was just chilling for most of that game, just chatting with him and he's somebody you can just chat with. I feel like all day, very chill guy and someone that honestly I just want to hang out with, you know. Um, and he's RJ's guy here in Toronto. Like if you, if you, if you're at the games, he's the one that working out rj. So he's around RJ Barrett a lot. So if RJ Barrett really likes him, maybe, maybe he puts in a word for him. Um, he also has relate. He's. I think he's the only guy maybe we'll mention that is actually a two time NBA champion. [00:39:38] Speaker B: Right. [00:39:39] Speaker A: And that's. [00:39:40] Speaker B: That would assume so. Yeah. [00:39:41] Speaker A: And I think that goes a long way to getting and gaining the respect of NBA guys that will suit up. He can say he's done it on the NBA level, obviously not fiba, but even maybe the relationships that are kind of, I wouldn't say the word severed, but a guy like Wiggins that hasn't played for a while, he was in Golden State with him, so maybe he can reach back. Chris Boucher in Toronto hasn't played for a while. Will he be able to get him? I just think about that kind of stuff and if you like what the Raptors are doing offensively, I think Jama would be that guy. But I think the FIBA experience, and especially what Grange reported recently, just from what Rowan Barrett said about I want somebody with FIBA winning on the championship level podium experience, Jamma just doesn't have that. If that's what's separating him, then that's tough. But yeah, I. A guy that everyone gets along with and everyone will listen to. [00:40:45] Speaker B: Yeah. I do find it interesting that we're talking about two of the leading candidates and they're kind of polar opposites in terms of their resumes. Right. For real. So they have a big decision making. One thing I forgot to bring up earlier that you said was like, is it just about this window and the next four years? And you know, I, I've been reporting this book on the history of Canadian basketball, like going back to the 90s, the 2000, the 2000s, like this program has never looked more than four years ahead but maybe it's time to like, maybe it's time to take a little bit more of like a long term approach. Maybe it's time to get a guy who's not going to be like, you know, for example, like Shama might be an NBA head coach very soon. Right. So is that a problem? Do you want to hire a guy who might be an NBA head coach? And now all these other problems that we've seen with the last two Canadian coaches come into play. So I think 2028 is the big one. It is, you know, maybe Shai's last run in his prime, it's big, but also like, maybe it is time to think a little bit more long term about the future of the program and getting a coach. Like, man, I don't know if people saw Court of Gold, the Netflix documentary about the Olympics, but France's coach, Serbia's coach, those guys have been around forever. They know the players, they're respected by the players. And I think that goes a long way in those international competitions. So the longer we can get a head coach for the better. [00:42:09] Speaker A: Yeah. And I, when you mentioned quarter gold, I remember thinking back to pre game right before France and Canada faced off. They're all in the locker room and maybe this doesn't matter at all, but as a coach, you've seen France's locker room, how hyped they were going into that game. They're all screaming, excited. And again, it seemed like they were praying or something. I was like, what's going on over here? Well, maybe that's different approaches pregame, like some people, you know, different, different approach to it. But yeah, I think I'm tired of a new head coach every other year. Three years. And we have had Nick Nurse, we've had Jordy Fernandez, and now we're about to have a next one. [00:42:47] Speaker B: No, I'll give you a crazier stat. The last three years we've had six head coaches, had Nick Nurse, we've had Gordy Herbert, coach Windows, we've had Roy Rana coach Windows, we've had Nate Bjorkren coach Windows, Nathaniel Mitchell and Jordy. So I had six coaches in three years, head coaches, winter and summer Windows. Yes. But yeah, a little continuity would be nice. You know, you preach it across the board for the players. You know, you say like, we need a three year commitment from players. The coach who said that was Nick Nurse, he left a couple years later. And I think there has to be accountability there for it can't just be the players who are committed long term. It has to be across the board, the organization. There has to be some long term commitments. [00:43:33] Speaker A: Yeah, that's, that's what makes me kind of iffy on the three year commitment for players. Then if you're not going to have it for coaches, then I really don't care about if the player wants to show up in the Olympics. Obviously you're going to go with the. [00:43:42] Speaker B: Rest of the last window. You mean. Yeah, I see your point. It was a little complicated because Nick was the one who asked for it and then he left. So how can you look a guy in his face and say like, we, we're only taking a three year commitment when the coach didn't commit? Yeah, yeah. [00:43:56] Speaker A: Next candidate, who do you have on your list? [00:43:59] Speaker B: Yeah, the other guy is another Oakwood guy, Nathaniel Mitchell. Nathaniel's been part of the Team Canada staff since officially since 2016. He was kind of working out guys. He's always been in the player development area in Canada. And then basically one of the assistant coaches couldn't fly in 2016 to Manila. This is how the program used to work, by the way. It wasn't a whole lot of thought going into like the, the bench. It was like a guy last minute couldn't fly. And then they were like, Nathaniel, you want to coach the team? He went and the rest is history. He's been with the team since, but he is currently a head coach in the Chinese Basketball Association. And really that's just because like he's been in the NBA, he's been around the G League, but he just wants to like learn and throw himself into the fire. So he went over to China, which I think says a lot about him. Just like he wants to grind and get better and become a head coach because that's the way to get better. So that's what he's doing. Nathaniel is not as experienced as Drama or Gordy, but you also have a three year window here where you're leading up to the Olympics. So maybe there's a bit of room here to help not just grow the players, but also grow whoever the coach is in the next three years. So they're going to get better and better by the time the Olympics comes around. So that's kind of the Nathaniel thing and basically like he's Shay's guy and I think that that's pretty important here. When you talk about like Shai is the guy who we're building this thing around. You want your head coach to have a good relationship with Shai. And Nathaniel obviously runs or, or he used to run the, the National Training center out of Humber, which is where all the Canadians go in the off season to train. And he trains a bunch of them. Andrew Nemhardt, RJ Barrett, but, but Shea is the guy that since 2016 in, he made that team as a teenager. Those two really clicked and they work out every summer in Toronto and Hamilton together. [00:46:00] Speaker A: Bring out the OKC staff too, right? [00:46:02] Speaker B: So yeah, I think relationships, right. He, he's better than anyone at forming relationships with these Canadian players by far. [00:46:09] Speaker A: And I think about Andrew Nemhard, Ryan Emhard, like he's worked those guys out since they were like 11, 12, 13 years old. Um, I'm just thinking about other guys like Delano Banson. He has a relationship. If we ever want to see Delano play. Every guy coming up knows Nathaniel Mitchell and he's tapped in. Even I've heard of like 15 year olds that are playing in Ospas. Nathaniel Mitchell's worked them out like he's tapped in that much. So if that's the guy that, if it's not this upcoming position, he needs to be considered for the future ones for sure. [00:46:46] Speaker B: And that's why I respect him so much. Like me and you, I don't go to that many games, but whenever I go to a prep school game, an AU game, Nathaniel's in the gym and that's like when the Olympics ended, there was a lot of chatter about how it wasn't a Canadian coach, it wasn't a Canadian staff, we need a Canadian. And I think there's something to be said for that. Especially when it comes to just like a guy who is sweated with these guys, grinded with them on the come up and knows them a little bit better because of that. And in terms of like, you know, the head coach is probably going to be a part time job, they're probably going to have another job. [00:47:26] Speaker A: What are your thoughts on that? [00:47:27] Speaker B: Part time, the NBA or in Europe. But like yeah, I think like there is something to be said for a guy who full time is in the city is, is going to see these young guys coming up, can run camps in the summers, can do coaching clinics across the country when he's not in the winters, when he's not with the national team. Like I think there's really something to be said for a full time head coach. And yeah, again like that's obviously not what Nathaniel's been doing. He's been an assistant coach, part time guy with other jobs. But more than anyone he's taking it kind of upon himself. To be in these camps, these Easter camps, to be going across the country to see young guys coming up and work out with young guys. So whether or not it's full or part time, you need a coach like that, like, who's actually committed to like growing the sport in the country. [00:48:22] Speaker A: Yeah, I think if she has to say, man, Nathaniel Mitchell, that's the, that's the guy. I'm looking at a name that. I want to give you some names too. [00:48:31] Speaker B: Let's do it. That'll be great. I've talked a lot. You got to start talking. [00:48:35] Speaker A: Let's talk about a name that I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned, that has coached with the senior men's national team, has coached the age group level. Roy Ranna, a name that I don't hear, which I'm kind of shocked because he's the only one that can say he's won a gold medal at the age group level and he's coached basically every Canadian there is from the age group level, senior men's national team and the Nike Hoop Summit, where almost every top prospect in Canada has gone and played. Shay, RJ Barrett, Andrew Nemhardt, Luke Dorr, Jamal Murray. Like, the list goes on. Like, he's been there, he's been. I don't know how long. It outdates me how long he's coached the Hoop Summit. He's not coaching anymore, but all the Canadian talent that came through there. He's a name that I'm shocked that hasn't been mentioned and. But I also hear on the grassroots level a lot more. I think a lot of grassroots level think that they know what Roy's done and the relationships he's built. So. And he's coached with Germany at the 2020 Olympics. He helped Egypt get to the World cup, one of the five teams from Africa that were there. And now he's coaching up in Japan. I'm forgetting that he even spent time in the NBA with the Sacramento Kings. So, yeah, I think. I also think the age group level, age group teams haven't been the same since. So that's the name that I'm shocked hasn't been mentioned. So what are your thoughts on Roy Randa? [00:50:04] Speaker B: Good point. I got a few thoughts. One thing I should have mentioned earlier is that from what I understand, this has not been like an interview process where they cast a wide net and interview a bunch of guys. Canada basketball went specifically after a couple guys at the top of their list. And that's why I don't think we're hearing about like all these guys getting interviews, even if I think they should, the way that I understand that they've gone about it is more so targeting a couple guys and then going from there. [00:50:29] Speaker A: What are your thoughts on that? [00:50:31] Speaker B: I don't know if I have thoughts on that. But like you said, Roy built the whole junior national team and cadet national team program. Like they had more success than ever under him. Even though back then they had less money than ever, less resources than ever. The team that won Gold in 2017 in the world championships was like, that team wasn't. It wasn't good. [00:50:54] Speaker A: And when you think about that team. Yeah, from what I heard, a lot of players dropped out. [00:50:59] Speaker B: It was like a summer of everyone was playing aau. They couldn't get any of the top guys. [00:51:03] Speaker A: But then RJ Barrett, Roy Rana, Emmanuel Miller was playing with the Chicago Bulls on a lot of names that you. [00:51:12] Speaker B: Prince Adoro. [00:51:13] Speaker A: Some names that played youth sports ended up beating a team that was led by John Calipari, Emmanuel Quickley, Kevin Herder, a bunch of NBA guys that you know. [00:51:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:23] Speaker A: And Canada beat them. Led by Rorana. [00:51:25] Speaker B: Yeah. So obviously like his resume speaks for himself. He. He's a great coach. When. When you talk again about the golden generation of players, he's coached them all on the junior national teams. He cut Shay and Nikhil, but we don't talk about that. But no, that was like a thing where I think it was a mutual. Agreed they were going to go to the AAU circuit, whatever, but technically they got cut. But he's coached them all. And like Nathaniel Mitchell, he also chose to go grind in Japan and go be a head coach and go learn over there and get better. So you have to respect it. And yeah, he's a great coach. And like, last thing I'll say about Roy is that if he's not going to be the head coach, I really hope that he's on the staff. [00:52:06] Speaker A: Please involve him. I think he brings a different level of understanding just about national team. So I'd love to see him sort of in the mix for that. Another name that I have that's been in the mix recently, coaching as an assistant coach with the senior men's national team is Scott Morrison. When I think about Scott Morrison, I know he's been with Canada basketball for about 13 years now. I believe his first was the 2012 FIBA Americas as assistant coach. He's coached U19. I think he was on the U23 staff with Nathaniel Mitchell, I believe. [00:52:42] Speaker B: Yep. Yeah. Global Jam. Yeah, he was. [00:52:45] Speaker A: Took some time away Rejoined and like, he's heavily respected by guys like Brad Stevens. By. He's coaching up in Utah right now. So, like, he like, well respected basketball minds know Scott Morrison, and I'm glad that he's back in the mix. And he's also coached with the Perth Wildcats in the nbl. So as assistant coach, I would consider even maybe not for this cycle or for the head coaching position, but as someone that should be in the mix going forward, too. What are your thoughts on Scott Morrison? [00:53:17] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, he's moving his way up the NBA hierarchy pretty quickly. Like now he's the guy on the bench who in Utah who's always standing up. He's basically second in command and always. [00:53:29] Speaker A: And he's in the G League last year giving orders. [00:53:32] Speaker B: I think he was on. I think two years ago he was in the G League and he was on the bench in Utah last year, too. But he would be a good guy for sure to be on the staff. [00:53:40] Speaker A: Scott Morrison, next candidate. I got for you and I saw Green share this and I was like, yeah, why not? Serbian coach, coach in the NBA. 23 years experience coaching, first European head coach of an NBA team. Igor Kashkoshkov. Hopefully I pronounced that right, the last name, I think. [00:54:02] Speaker B: So Kokoshkov. [00:54:03] Speaker A: He's been an assistant coach, I think, on 13 different NBA teams. That's got to be like a record or something or like up there, which is. And now he's with the Atlanta Hawks and he coached, I think, the Serbian national team in 2021. He won gold at the Eurobasket with Turkey. So he has experience there. And yeah, he's with the Atlanta Hawks and there's a few Canadians also on the Atlanta Hawks coaching staff that I know of. So Igor, I think, is a name if you're. If you want to look at experience and you want to look at somebody that can relate to the players he's coached on basically half the league, I consider him as an option. What are your thoughts on Igor? [00:54:46] Speaker B: I don't know. I would be surprised if they pulled someone so far out of the sphere of Canada basketball into the position. Like, I'm not saying they have to hire a Canadian, but if they're going to hire someone who's not Canadian, I think, like, the person should at least have relationships with some of the players or have been around the program in the past or something. This just seems so far out of left field to me that it's probably not my favorite option. [00:55:15] Speaker A: Yeah, I just looked at his experience. I was like, damn, this Guy has coached a lot. So you just mentioned, should Canada look internally, what are your thoughts on the takes that Canada should hire a coach in this country, someone that's Canadian. What are your thoughts on that? Or bring fresh ideas? [00:55:36] Speaker B: I think they should, as long as the coaching search goes how I anticipate it. Which is to say that I think everyone wants this job. Right? People want to coach Shaiga, just Alexander. He's arguably the best player in the world. [00:55:50] Speaker A: I pay money to coach that guy. [00:55:52] Speaker B: Alongside 11 other NBA players in LA in the Olympics. People want this job. So if people want this job, to me, there's enough Canadian head coaches who have really good resumes, who we just talked about, who you can form a staff with without needing to look externally. So I would say that hasn't always been the case. Like in the past, you couldn't go and say Gordy Herbert has won gold with Germany. That only happened recently. You couldn't go and say John Malela has won two NBA championships. That only happened recently. So now we're at a point where we have these NBA head coaches or we have these Canadian head coaches who have proven they can win, so why not go and get them? [00:56:39] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think when we talk about relationships, I think that to me is maybe second outside of FIBA experience. I think you have to have that FIBA experience and these guys have to know you, they have to respect you because like you could be a five time Euroleague champion. But you think that's going to move Shay? Goodness Alexander, you think he cares? You think Dillon Brooks would be like, yeah, that's impressive to me. Those guys don't care. At least I don't think so. But an NBA championship, that moves me. [00:57:05] Speaker B: Yeah, no, and, and also, like you need to know what makes a guy tick. That stood out to me watching the Court of Gold documentary was just the Serbian and the French team. Again, disregard Team usa that that is the exception to the rule in international basketball. Those guys just loafed it around and then Steph dropped 40 and it didn't matter. But that's Steph. But the other teams knew, like Nick Batum knew when to call out his team, when to call them soft. Jokic knew when to get on his guys for like guarding KD in a silly way. Like you need. And the coaches did the exact same thing. And I think you need a coach who knows what makes guys tick, what knows what makes guys going what them happy, when to go hard, when to go soft. And you can only know that through experience, being around them. So, yeah, like that. That relationship part is. Is the biggest part for sure. [00:57:56] Speaker A: I want to give out some other names that I don't know if I want them as head coach right now, but I think they're. They're. They're rising up the ladder. Grange also mentioned his name in Sportsnet, and I was like, yeah, definitely. Ryan Smits coached London Lions, BBL league. Shout out to the BBL coaching with the Hawks. Now I want to see Ashton Smith, a player development coach with the Hawks. Just part of the system. He's coached in the G League. I know Nathaniel Mitchell knows him very well. So I want to see those guys in the mix. And I'm thinking. And the funny thing with Ryan, Jama and him coached were both assistant coaches at the same time with the 905. So that relationship could be brokered if, say, they end up selecting Jama. So some names like that. I know there's obviously a ton of names. Any other names that you want sort of in the mix? Maybe not his head coach or just part of the system? [00:58:47] Speaker B: Yeah. Sean Swords comes to mind. [00:58:49] Speaker A: Yes. [00:58:49] Speaker B: Olympian in 2000. Coached at Laurentian for a while. Obviously, his daughters are two of the best young Canadian women coming up the pipeline. And Sean now is the head coach of Brooklyn's G League team. So under Jordy Fernandez is staff. And, yeah, he's. He's making his way up the coaching ranks in a similar way. So, yeah, a guy who obviously been an Olympian with Canada knows Rowan very well, knows those guys well. He should get involved at some point soon. [00:59:22] Speaker A: Yeah, we named a bunch of coaches. What name do you like the most on this list? [00:59:28] Speaker B: Honestly, it's hard because we just went through so many guys, and I think they all have really good resumes and they could all do a really good job. I do think Gordy would probably be my choice. Like, I haven't spent a ton of time thinking about this other than the last couple days, but I think he would be my choice because it comes down to the fact that he knows how to win international basketball tournaments, and he is gonna fibafy the program. And I think that is more important than anything. I think for far too long, Canada has operated as this program that is North American. The kids play aau, the kids go to America. We've basically styled our whole basketball ecosystem off America. But as I said, America is the exception to the rule in international basketball. Like, Canada has to style their federation off France, off Serbia, off, you know, Spain. These type of teams, and they're definitely. I give them credit. They're going in that direction for the last few years. But Gordy, to me, is a guy who will immediately FIBA FY the program and just be like, no, the NBA players are not running it. Like, these are the rules. Either accept them or don't. And some guys won't, but I think enough guys will, and enough guys will buy in to where the point where three years down the line, that will give them the best chance to win in 27 and 28. [01:00:54] Speaker A: I like Jama or Roirana just because I'm a. I'm also. I'm also got that covered U sport, so, you know, I know Jama used to play ubc. Roirana coached at Ryerson, so. But I do think if we're talking just FIBA experience, I think Gordy would probably be the guy that. That they select. But we'll find out, I guess, right? [01:01:14] Speaker B: We'll find out. [01:01:16] Speaker A: What are your thoughts on the current state of just basketball in Canada? [01:01:19] Speaker B: I think we're in a good place, like, undoubtedly. I mean, I've been obviously spending the last year writing a book, golden generation coming out. Plug it. November 4, 2025. Oh, you got a date. [01:01:35] Speaker A: Is the first time you're saying that. [01:01:36] Speaker B: Think so, yeah. Yeah. [01:01:38] Speaker A: Okay. Exclusive. [01:01:39] Speaker B: But in researching this, I've basically gone back to, like, the 1990s and. And up to now to just kind of trace the history of Canadian basketball. And, like, when you learn. And I know you know this, but when you learn about the history and. And what we came from, like, we were in the gutter, man. Like, nobody took us seriously at all. We had no pros in Europe, in the NBA. The Canadian basketball passport was seen as a joke because people just didn't know what Canadians played basketball so they couldn't get jobs overseas. The national team for. For the 90s and the 2000s and the 2010s was seen as a joke. We didn't have prep schools here. We didn't have good AAU teams. So, like, at the end of the day, we're doing pretty good. I know people have their complaints. I know they say, oh, no, this generation of Canadians is soft. They don't work hard. They're not focused, like, yada, yada, yada. But at the end of the day, the proof is in a pudding. Like, we have the best prep programs in the world. We have the best AAU teams in the world. Now we have the cebl, which is growing and I think is an amazing, amazing international basketball league. We just placed third at the World cup, fifth at the Olympics. Our youth national Teams aren't doing well, but that's because the best players are playing aau. That's a conversation for another day. Like, I think we're doing very good. There's, there's a lot that could improve for sure and we get into that if you want. But overall I think you have to be happy with where we're at. And, and I think Shay is about to win MVP for the first time for a Canadian in 20 years history. [01:03:14] Speaker A: Yeah, the age group level, I feel like that could be a five hour podcast that we, that we talk about. [01:03:18] Speaker B: It's a great conversation. [01:03:19] Speaker A: But yeah, it's a very divided conversation too, I think. If you talk to a lot of people in, in Canadian basketball, how, how do you want to. How should we measure success when it comes to the next head coach? And is it slowly depending on whether Canada medals? [01:03:33] Speaker B: Yeah, that's where I'm at. [01:03:35] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:03:35] Speaker B: Yeah, they, they need a medal at least in 27 or 28 and really at the Olympics in 28. And that's a hard bar to clear because these are win or go home situations and all that. But at the same time, like, if, if we want to take ourselves seriously as a basketball country, that should be the bar. Like we should have very high expectations because we have the best players in the world. We have the best coaches in the world. The national team is finally at a place where they can pay to have the, all the competitive advantages that the other teams have. [01:04:07] Speaker A: So shout out to Bartlett. [01:04:09] Speaker B: Shout out Bartlett. So, yeah, like there's no reason that, that they couldn't medal if, if they do the necessary things in between now and 20, 28. And I would say if they don't meddle in the next four years, that's definitely a disappointment. It's definitely a failure. I didn't feel that way about 24, but I feel that way about 28. [01:04:31] Speaker A: I felt like 24 was a failure, to be honest with you, but I kind of just want to see buy in. Can you get the same guys that played in the last Olympic cycle, female World cup to buy in and spend their summers again? I think it might be tough, to be honest. Will you. The next coach, will he be here for a long time? That's my biggest question too. Like, I just, I just don't want this to be a revolving door of coaches. That's kind of what I've been tired of seeing, like wake. Seeing my phone and. Yeah. Nick Nurse, a couple weeks before camp decides to step away. We can't have that. [01:05:04] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I Agree. I'll put you on the spot. Who do you think will be the starting lineup in 28? Ooh. [01:05:09] Speaker A: Ooh, that's tough. That's tough. Shea, of course. That's a good question. Shay, of course. The center position. I'm just like, who the hell is gonna fill that role? That's up for grabs. [01:05:24] Speaker B: Isn't that Zach Edie? Okay, no, I'll give you Shay. [01:05:29] Speaker A: I'll give you. I might be forgetting some names. I'll give you Shay. I'll give you R.J. barrett. I think he's a mainstay. He's always going to suit up. Um, I'll give you Dylan Brooks. I think Dylan Brooks will be part of that. The powered forward position, I feel like might be filled up by some young player. [01:05:48] Speaker B: Keyshawn George. [01:05:49] Speaker A: Keyshawn George. He was on the first episode. He's expressed his interest. If not, he's not a guy that stops the ball. He's going to be able to move it. I think you want positional size for that. It's tough to do that. Shooting guard. I don't mind Nemhard, but also I think you kind of want Nemhard off the bench, at least right now. And I'm also just looking at Deshayan Sharpe fill that shooting guard role. Does. Is Ben Mathurin in the mix? Is Omax Prosper? I don't know where his development's at, but in four years. Right. Will Riley, top prospect in this NBA draft. He can catch and shoot. He was playing an off ball role in Illinois. [01:06:29] Speaker B: We have so many, like, combo guards coming out of Canada, like, scores. [01:06:34] Speaker A: Yeah. And then there's a good center coming up in. In Canada in the class of, I believe, 20, 27. So. Don't want to put pressure, though, on. On the young guys, you know, so I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna name drop them. They probably know who they are. So. Yeah, just. It's so hard. [01:06:53] Speaker B: Yeah, no, it's really. [01:06:54] Speaker A: What's your starting lineup? [01:06:55] Speaker B: I'll go Shea. Andrew Nemard, RJ Dillon and Zach Edie. People should watch the Pacers if they haven't recently. Andrew Nemhardt is playing the best ball his career, and he is. I think he's going to be a heck of a player. And he's kind of the kind of. He's the kind of guy you want besides Shay because he does the same thing beside Tyrese Halliburton. Right. He knows how to play that off ball defense. First role. And the other guy, I would just Mention is Mfundu Kevin Geli. Don't know if he'll be in a position where he's starting, but he's playing with a good team in Venice right now. He's kind of the guy in the winter windows right now that's leading Canada, and he's just a big, physical guy that we just haven't had in so long. He's going to rebound, he's going to hit guys, he's going to protect the rim. So Kevin Gilly, I really think will be part of that team as well. [01:07:50] Speaker A: Yeah, I wish he was part of the Olympics run, but I understood the decision to have Melvin edge him there, too. We just mentioned the young guys coming up. How do you balance or how do you. How should they even approach bringing in some of the young guys and balance the present and the future of the team where you have this core group already, but you also want to bring in, like we said, the Shane and Sharps, maybe, or those guys coming up? [01:08:15] Speaker B: Well, I just thought about this. But to bring it back to early in our conversation, you shouldn't make any promises. Yep. Right. Like, guys should come in knowing that they're competing for spots and they're competing for minutes, which is what happened in 24. Obviously, like, Lou won a starting job, and that's good. It's good the guys know that you can move your way up the hierarchy if you play well. Roles are not set coming into camp. So that's. That's like the biggest thing, I think, going forward is that there's no promises made. You come into camp, you see where you measure up against the rest of the Canadiens, and the coach is going to play you accordingly. But don't come in here expecting to get big minutes or don't. Don't come in here if you only want to come if you're going to play a lot, or if you only want to come if you're going to have the rock in your hand come because you want to represent Canada. And the other stuff should be secondary to that. I think that is the message that they have to send these players and these agents. Otherwise, guys are going to come in expecting one thing, getting another, and then having resentment to the program because of it. So I think, yeah, that's the biggest thing. What would you say? [01:09:25] Speaker A: Yeah, it's tough. I think we're going to talk about the FIBA America cup in a bit and just how. I think they're trying to get a lot of NBA guys in the mix. I don't know if it's possible. We'll see. Yeah, I agree. Just don't promise a role. But also if you're gonna open up training camp and bring in like they brought in Wiggins or they brought in other guys that were competing or whatever it is that they said they were going to bring in. Right. Nemhardt who came in, that kind of stuff. Like, if you're opening up training camp, open it to everybody. Because I heard from a lot of people that people were interested, but they just never thought there was a chance to even make it. So why even come out to camp? So I think it's a lot of that kind of stuff. But. Yeah, but Rowan Barrett, like, I see that guy, I know he travels a lot. I know he spent time in Memphis with Zach Edie working on that relationship. They've been known each other for how long? So he's, he's doing the groundwork early. So what they're doing, I think like they're doing a lot of behind the scenes stuff that we can't even talk about where they're preparing for that. So I think they, they're expecting, they're trying to see what it will look like. And then I, I just got to, we just got to see how it's going to work out, you know. [01:10:37] Speaker B: So, yeah, like, I'll just jump in. Like the bigger the pool of players especially who are bought in, the better. Because I think what we saw against France in this, in this last four year window really was like Canada didn't have the versatility to win an international basketball tournament. They had one way to really play, which was small ball, which was fastball. [01:11:00] Speaker A: I don't blame Jordy for that though. [01:11:01] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm not saying I blame it exactly. It's a personnel thing. We didn't have a bunch of big guys who could bang in the post like France did. And that, that was our, our downcoming. Like the USA had Steph Curry, right. And Steph can score over Gobert, but why was Gobert out there? He was only out there because Joel Embiid is also out there. So they needed a big bruising center to be there, whereas Gobert didn't need to play against Canada because we didn't have that kind of center. Right. Like there all these matchup things going on where the more pieces you have for a coach to put around the puzzle, the better off you're going to be in those tournaments where you need to win one game this way, one game that way, and on and on. So, yeah, like, I don't know how to do it. That's Rowan's job. But they need to get as many guys into the system as possible who are bought in. [01:11:48] Speaker A: Yeah, but it's good to have these options right where now in 2028, I think you're going to have more options than you ever had before. We can both agree to that. I want to end off with two questions for you. But Canada just qualified for the FIBA America cup recently. I had a shaky sort of end to the last window, two losses, still finished top of the group, and their poll was recently revealed and includes Panama, Venezuela, Puerto Rico. What are your thoughts on just Canada's pool and the FIBA America cup and what are their chances? [01:12:21] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, this is the opportunity to go win a gold medal at an America that you've never won before. So I think. I know nobody thinks about this in Canada. We only think about the Olympics. But, like, it would be a pretty good momentum builder to go down there and win gold. It's not going to be easy because our guys don't have a ton of FIBA experience compared to a lot of these countries. But if they manage the right mix of NBA talent with like FIBA experienced players, to me there's no reason why they couldn't go down there with, with the right camp, with the right preparation and win a gold medal. I mean, your best competition, with all due respect, is like Brazil is like the usa, but that's like a mishmash of guys. Right? [01:13:02] Speaker A: They're not sending the top guys. [01:13:03] Speaker B: No. So. So it's not like there's like a Serbian juggernaut down there. So, yeah, hopefully they can go down and make some noise. Hopefully we'll be there. [01:13:13] Speaker A: What are your thoughts on some of the young players? I know Canada basketball has talked about it. If you talk to anybody within the organization, they're trying to get a lot of young NBA, Canadian, NBA guys to suit up this summer. Do you think that's possible? And what are your thoughts? [01:13:30] Speaker B: It's so tough. Obviously we both heard the names that they want and that they're trying to get. Ben, Matheran, Shaden, Sharp, Zach, Eddy, like the top dogs, the top young players. But they were going after those same guys a couple years ago at the America in 2022, and the only NBA player they got was Delano Banton. And the only reason they got Delano Banton was because he was a Raptor and Nathaniel Mitchell was coaching the team. He was also an assistant coach on the Raptors. So their relationship was there. Like these NBA teams don't Want to send young players away in the summer because they want to keep them in their facilities, keep them with their coaches, keep them working with them. So that. That's obviously the tough thing. But my response to that would be like, well, the French guys go to French in the summer. The Australians go to Australia in the summer. Like, it's not impossible. You have to figure out a way to make it work with these NBA teams and to make the guys essentially demand that I, hey, like, I'm leaving for a few months and I'm going to join Canada. And that. That's tough because we just don't have the culture of it yet. But hopefully that culture starts building this summer. [01:14:39] Speaker A: Yeah. Everyone I've talked to is like, wait and see. [01:14:41] Speaker B: Yes. [01:14:42] Speaker A: It's a question, will these guys pull up or not? And it's so close to camp, too, which makes me kind of, like, very weary of, like, if it will actually happen. I talked to Keyshawn and George on the last podcast, and he said he's interested in playing, doesn't know if it will happen this summer, wants to spend his summer working on his game. And if that's what Canada basketball is, the Astros. Canada basketball. I know Roman's got a close relationship with. With Keyshawn, George and his people, and I think it'll be tough because, like, I don't want to see four or five guys, to be honest. I'd rather just see, like, three. Because how are you going to get the ball in everybody's hands? Because people are going to look at this, like, maybe as one or two of them. Maybe look at this development. Like, Delano Banton, he was a top guy. The ball was in his hands during the entire FIBA America cup. So it was beneficial for him, too. [01:15:26] Speaker B: Right. [01:15:26] Speaker A: Because he got reps, which carried on. Right. What number would you be happy in terms of NBA guys that pulled up? [01:15:35] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I think that's a good point. You don't want a bunch of guys going there, and then guys are sitting on the bench not playing, and they're going, why did I just waste my summer not developing when I could have been in the gym every day? So, yeah, three to five NBA guys sounds like a good number at the top end. Because also you do want, like, a Trey Bell Haynes. You want Fondo Cavangeli, like, these guys. I know people don't want to hear this, but these guys might be better FIBA players right now than a lot of these young Canadians. Yeah, like, he will be the starting center of that team, but that. That's kind of the thing is you want an infrastructure to help facilitate these NBA guys so that they come in there and it's not just crazy them, because most of these guys haven't played FIBA since they were 19, when they played for two weeks in, like, Egypt. Like, they don't. They don't really know what's going on over there. Like, they need vets. Phil, scrub. Those kind of guys who can help, like, put them in the right position. So, yeah, definitely. Definitely need a mix there. [01:16:35] Speaker A: Yeah, three for me. Rowan, my guy. Get it done. I just want three. If three is possible. Maybe two. Honestly, I'll be cool with. But yeah. Thanks, Oren, for joining. Talk about his book. We've been talking about it a little bit. Anything else you want to share? Just about your upcoming book on Canadian basketball. [01:16:52] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I've definitely shared a good amount, but it's called the Golden Generation. It's about the modern history of Canadian basketball, the growth of Canadian basketball, kind of where we were at and how we got here. And it kind of traces that history through a combination of, like, what's happening at the grassroots level, the Canadian national team, and then just some of the stories of these guys who we know now are killing it in the NBA. But the truth is, like, people like me and you are trying to cover this sport. People like me, Grange, and Doug Smith obviously being covering the sport. But the reality is people don't know the history in this country. We don't know the history of how these guys got here, of how bad it was for Canadian Nationals, how bad it was for the national team for so long, how much struggles these AAU teams had to go through to get off the ground and to get our kids to NCAA schools and ultimately to the NBA, how much pushback there was against that, against prep schools and. And all that. So I think I'm excited just for people to understand a little bit more of the history, to understand how we got here as a basketball country, because it's a really interesting history. And we talked about it right now. I think we mentioned a bunch of coaches names who most people don't know of, and I think that's huge. And that's what the book is trying to do, too, is put a spotlight on coaches, ex players, parents, whoever it might be, who, like, really built up this infrastructure, who don't get the limelight because they might not be, like, the NBA star player, but who really built this infrastructure to the point where now, like, we are producing guys every single year. So that's What? That's what the book's doing. And, yeah, November 4th, it'll be in bookstores. There'll be a preorder link very soon, and you could follow me at Oran Weisfeld on Twitter and all that for that kind of information. But, yeah, man, that's the book. I'm excited to share it. [01:18:54] Speaker A: I'm excited, everyone. November 4th, Indigo. I don't know where else you get other books, but the bookstore, the library. Go get your copies on November 4th. Oren, thanks so much for joining me. This is a fun combo. I feel like a lot of valuable information was shared between us. [01:19:11] Speaker B: I think so. I think so, too. I hope people appreciate it. And, yeah, people obviously only want to pay attention Olympic years, but to me, international basketball is nothing like it. It's the best thing to watch. Like, it's. It's just so entertaining. It's so many storylines. It's so interesting. So hopefully people in Canada actually let me end on this point. Like, hopefully people kind of lock in a little bit more because we all saw, like, a lot of trash talk when Canada lost to France. We all saw people pointing fingers, blaming, saying they're not doing enough, blah, blah, blah. I don't think the fans are doing enough, to be quite frank. [01:19:47] Speaker A: Okay, that's a good thing. [01:19:49] Speaker B: Like, yo, you go. You go to the first game. Greece, Canada, and 85% of the fans are Greek. Like, we're not traveling to these tournaments. We're not supporting our guys on the floor. We're not paying attention to the prep scene, the AAU scene, the young guys coming up. Like, that's what this podcast is trying to do. But, like, we need to do a better job of that in Canada of, like, supporting our guys, not just pointing fingers when they lose, but, like, being around for the whole journey. [01:20:15] Speaker A: I agree. Yeah. It shouldn't just be every four years, and then. Yeah. And we shouldn't just have to. That's why I kind of want the space to be right. Every week, we cover Canadian basketball. We talk about the grassroots level. We talk about the college guys. We talk about the college guys and women. We talk about the national team. We talk about the NBA, wnba. We talk everything on this podcast. So I'm excited for what's to come and the search for the new head coach. We'll see if we. If we find out soon, but this has been the Canadian basketball show. Thanks for tuning in. If you enjoy this, please leave a rating and review and we'll see y'all next time.