The origins of prep schools & AAU basketball in Canada with Ro Russell

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:04] Speaker B: Welcome to the Canadian basketball show. Your go to spot for the latest news stories and analysis on Canadian basketball. I'm your host, Lee Ben Osman. Just got back from Paris vacation. A little fun trip over there, but ignore that. We got a legend in the building, a pioneer, the person that started the first prep school basketball program in Canada. AU program also in Canada, traveling over 35 years ago. The international call him the Rev Roussell. Welcome to the show. How you doing, man? [00:00:33] Speaker A: I'm doing pretty good, man. Thanks for having me on. I'm. I'm excited about being on your show. [00:00:38] Speaker B: Yeah, obviously you're a guy I feel like everybody in the Canadian basketball landscape knows, but talking about the Rev, I hear this nickname all the time. Where did the origin begin for that? [00:00:49] Speaker A: Yo? Well, the Rev, back in the day when I first started au, you know, I'm very value driven. Like, I don't cuss, I don't drink, I don't smoke, I don't party. I don't, you know, you name all the things. I don't do that, you know, I'm about trying to get, make things happen, you know, I mean, I want guys to grow up from boys to men and be productive people in the world in the whole nine. So, you know, because I had so much rules all the time and I want to keep things on a straight and narrow. One of my former players, he's like, he called me the Rev. He said, you're like a reverend man, because we can't do nothing out here. And I said, yep, keep it focused, man. Keep it disciplined. And. And that name stuck because that's what I was all about. No cussing. You had to do a lot of burpees if you cussed and all types of stuff. So that's where it came from. [00:01:38] Speaker B: That's a good nickname. People call me the Franchise, but I. [00:01:41] Speaker A: Feel like the Rev. [00:01:42] Speaker B: The Rev, though, the Rev though, is. That's iconic. Like, I don't think anything could top that. But what you been up to, though? Obviously AU summer kind of just ended. Prep school season starting up. What you been up to? And tell me the school season, obviously, I'm guessing just started. Right? [00:01:56] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah. Well, this summer is a usual summer. You do AU and you travel. This summer I was both doing my, my grassroots AU program as well as working with elite 6 AU program that, you know, is connected with Elijah Fisher and his father and, and also with TPG and, and Markham Gators. We kind of collaborated on a, a summer program and did that because I know those guys Forever. And also just recruiting for the follow the following year, doing training and then also preparing for this season's prep school program at. Where I coach at. At Uchena Academy in Toronto and just keep them busy. The biggest thing aside from that is now I'm a grandfather, you know, so that was my biggest thing, going to Oshawa every few days to see my granddaughter and stuff like that. And she's number one. Like, she get first dibs for everything, you know what I'm saying? So that was basically my whole summer. [00:03:00] Speaker B: Yeah. That's amazing. You're often obviously credited as a pioneer in Canadian basketball, especially in the grassroots scene. What were those early years like? Like trying to build opportunities for players coming up. Was there like resistance to what you were doing? Like, can you tell me just about like those early days of like AAU basketball prep school when you were doing that kind of stuff? [00:03:21] Speaker A: Okay, sure. Definitely. I. In my early years, you know, that that kind of brings me right from going from high school to college myself, trying to make my own path in, in terms of my career. And I started young, I was coaching at 13 after I was playing hockey and then, sorry, training at 13, coaching at 15. And I started AU in when I was 18. So while I was in high school going to college, I was starting the. The whole mentality of h au work. Listen me, let me dive into it. Let me go to a library and figure it out. Let me make some calls. Because back in the day there was no Internet, so you couldn't press Google. There's no such thing. There's no social media, so you had to call people, you had to go to the library and figure it out and, and talk to mentors. That gave me ideas and stuff because, you know, I wanted to go D1 myself. And then the guys I was working with, I want to help them go D1 because I was like, man, these guys are good. I'm watching TV and these guys are definitely good enough to go D1. So, you know, it was. Was tough because it was all hockey related and it wasn't, you know, there was no kind of support from corporate, from the different basketball powers to be. And also the media was more focused on hockey and didn't really believe that basketball would stay because as you know, that was before the Raptors, you know what I'm saying? So they didn't really catch on that, hey, basketball is here to stay and there's a good product here. So it was really tough with the high school coaches, with the, the college coaches, the Youth sports coaches back in those days, I think it was called cis. [00:05:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:05:04] Speaker A: You know, so they didn't want the kids to leave and go to the States. High school coaches didn't want the kids to go to prep school and even colleges didn't. OCAA schools didn't want the kids to go to college because go to juco. They wanted to stay in. So the provincial teams wanted the guys to be. Have a strong provincial team. So they didn't want to play aau, you know what I'm saying? And so everybody was against me, but I felt was the best thing to do. And there's a real nice little pocket of people that were yearning for a you to happen, so I just stuck with it and. And grinded it out. [00:05:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Did you look at, like, what the US Were doing and be like, we need something like this in Canada? [00:05:45] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. I had to go to my. My cousin's house every summer when I was in high school, and then he'd go. He was playing au. So I go to the AU practices some. Some tournaments and games, and I was like, wow, this is a whole new world for me. Because it was. Wasn't that thing. The biggest thing in Canada that time was the oba, you know, people weren't going to the States like that, you know, and, you know, they saw, hey, now you get better competition, you get awareness and that mentality, and best overall, you get that exposure. Because D1 coaches were there, D2 coaches are there. JUCO coaches, they're there. So now they have an opportunity to go somewhere where a lot of them couldn't afford to pay for school or get a loan or whatever. [00:06:27] Speaker B: It's crazy because, like, in my time, obviously I'm a bit way younger, but I'm not to age you because obviously you've been in this for a while. But, like, I don't understand a basketball landscape without prep schools, without AAU programs, you know, that kind of stuff. What was like, maybe like the biggest obstacle in, like, getting that over the hump and then maybe who were some of the first people that you took or to the States to play basketball? And can you tell me about that? [00:06:52] Speaker A: Yeah, sure. Definitely. The biggest. Obviously the biggest hurdle was the money, right? Because when I first started, so I was growing up in Jaden Finch, so I saw a lot of guys in the courts, in the community centers, and they were good. They're talented. When they got in the gym, they're all system go, you know? Sure. You know, some guys didn't want to go to Class, Someone, you know, did a little things here and there, mischievous, whatever, and they weren't focused outside basketball, but in basketball, that was their thing. So I saw it as a tool to be able to motivate them to go to class, to work hard, to achieve something, to get somewhere. So I first targeted the different neighborhoods to, you know, to get the players from, to get, get them off the streets, to help them with opportunities and, and, and, and guys that were, were grimy and, and were dogs, you know, so you wanted that because if you went to the States, you needed people that can compete and didn't care about, you know, all the talent that was down there. So, you know, going to the different hoods at the same time, where you kind of face some little resistance from, if you're, you know, you're, you're from Jane and Finch and all that stuff, and you're going to different places like Rex or Regent or Jungle or, or Vern or wherever. And you know, but because the people that were there were saying, hey, this is a coach that's trying to help me. And then I was able to get a pass from all the different neighborhoods to be able to pick kids up and drop them off and the whole nine, but a lot of these kids, because they were from, you know, single parent families, low income families, all those kind of, you know, challenge challenging areas financially. You know, going to the states, you're traveling, you're renting, you're, you're getting a hotel, you're paying fees, you're eating all that stu. It was a little bit challenging in terms of, you know, budget and making the money work so I wouldn't come out of pocket all the time. And that didn't work. I ended up exhausting a lot of my savings over the time I was doing it and still do. But it was my passion and I really saw the need and, you know, the focus that the kids had when they went down there. So I try to make things work, trying to reach out to companies, trying to fundraise, trying to, you know, get sponsorship and those kind of things to ease that. So that was the biggest hurdle that I had. [00:09:15] Speaker B: Yeah. Before we started the podcast, you were telling me that you coached Mike George, which is kind of funny because, like, we had Mike George on a few episodes ago. So go listen to that if you haven't already. But just the longevity I want people to realize. Mike George and then Corey Joseph, Tristan Thompson. [00:09:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:09:33] Speaker B: Elijah Fisher. [00:09:34] Speaker A: Yes. [00:09:34] Speaker B: I don't know who's coming up next right now that you're coaching. But, like, you get. I'm saying, like, it's. This spans decades. [00:09:40] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:09:40] Speaker B: When you think about that, like, what goes through your mind that you coached a guy that's now arguably one of the most powerful agents in. [00:09:45] Speaker A: Yes. [00:09:46] Speaker B: In the world. [00:09:46] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah. Mike and me still are good friends. And, you know, that was like, back in 91, 92, you know, saying started AU in 89. And, you know, it's crazy how so much guys I've had are still connected with me and. And the time just flew, you know what I'm saying? And it's hard to mention all the guys because there's so many. You know, I mean, because I'll forget someone or not mention someone, then they'll hit me up and say, coach, you did. You didn't mention me. You know, I mean, so a lot of times I, you know, the guys know, all the guys I work with and dealt with and still work with are there. But. And there's. You know, obviously you have a feather in your cap about guys going to the NBA, but for me, I have a lot of guys that were. Are engineers, they're. They're doctors, they're lawyers, they're teachers, they're entrepreneurs, they're millionaires or whatever. So I always give kudos to those guys as well, because they're just as important and. And I'm fond of them as much as the guys that went to the NBA. [00:10:50] Speaker B: Facts. Taps. Let's talk about that Toronto Academy prep school. [00:10:54] Speaker A: Yes. [00:10:55] Speaker B: How did that start? Tell me about that. That's the first prep school people don't realize. We think of, obviously, prep schools and gained. I would feel like the Orangeville Preps of the world, like, that started like the Orangeville Preps, the 4e roll crowns. Receiving now. But 2002. [00:11:09] Speaker A: Yes. [00:11:09] Speaker B: What led to tap starting? And tell me how that all came to be. [00:11:13] Speaker A: Yeah, well, a good friend of mine, Patrick Shaw, shouts out to him. He was running the Falstaff Community center in North York by Jane Strip and 401. And he gave me, like, almost unlimited access to the gym. So we had the gym, like, all the time. You know, we carved out different spots during the day, in the evening, in the morning to be in the gym. And, you know, at that time, it was hard to go D1 because you had to get your SAT. They had a lot of NCAA changes that. First it was like, okay, what's your GPA? But now you have to get 14 core at that time. Now it's 16, but you have to get 14 specific core classes that the NCAA account. So when that happened, it's like, okay, I'm definitely not going to go D1, you know, so a lot of guys were like, I can't just stay in my regular high school and do that because they don't know what's going on. They don't even know about when it was before, when it's just your GPA now they got figure out 14 core. They're not going to know how to do this. So a lot of guys were coming to the gym all the time to practice with me for playing in grassroots and stuff like that. And some of them, their friends would come with them that were pretty good too. And then I saw all this talent in the gym and I was saying to myself like, hey, what's going on? How come you guys are not making it happen at your high schools? And they're telling me all the challenges and all the things are going. And I said, you know what, I got an idea, you know, I'll start a prep school. And they're saying, what? What's that? You know what I mean? They didn't realize what it was really at that time. And I said, well, we'll just take online courses under the Ministry of of Education. So they're legit classes. And there's a computer room right there. And we'll just spend like from, you know, come in in the morning, we'll work out from six to eight and then we'll go from, you know, 8:30, we'll set up the computers and the classes that you're taking to graduate and get your 14 core. And then we'll just go until 12, have lunch and go to strength conditioning in the gym in the same community center had a really nice strength conditioning weight room area. We'll just lift weights until 2 and then at 2:30 we'll work out and practice until 4 or 5 and then, you know, we're good. And they're like, yo, this is amazing, you know what I mean? Because a lot of them were going to the regular high school. They're practicing for an hour, maybe twice a week. You know, it's not that, you know, hard, not hard nose in terms of practicing, you know, and no one's really managing their stuff, their life in terms of their, you know, their physicality and going to the states and having coaches come up and so forth. Back then D1 coaches could come up to, to, you know, to see our guys play, you know what I mean? They could come to AU practices and all that stuff. So it was. We were getting coaches coming in to see us play. And then we had a full schedule that we went to the States for different prep school tournaments because that was going on in America, you know what I'm saying? And then there's some high schools up here that would play us. Most high school wouldn't play us because, you know, unfortunately, we beat them by like 80. But there's some good high schools like Henry Carr played us. Eastern Commerce played us. Um, I think Mother Teresa might have played us and some other schools. And then we played Humber College. We played Centennial College, Seneca, different schools like that as well. And then we had a US Prep school scheduled that we be on the road a whole weeks and weeks ahead. Like, I think one year we played 77 games and maybe 55 of it was in America. You know, I mean, so it was a. It was a big grind. But most of the guys got D1 scholarships. The guys that didn't make the grades, they went to Jucos. And then eventually he won. So it was a very good, you know, pilot program. And then we did it again. Did it again. And then maybe 2010 is where other programs start seeing what I was doing and start, you know, mimicking it. I think Eastern Commerce started Eastern Commerce Prep, and then even Team Canada started one, you know, from that. [00:15:25] Speaker B: I didn't know about that. [00:15:26] Speaker A: Yeah, Greg. Greg Francis saw what I was doing, and he started out with Team Canada was called nida, and it was in Hamilton. And then another friend of mine named Terry Upshaw, he started rita, which was like a offshoot. One was a National Elite Development Academy, and the other one was Regional Elite Development Academy. And then other people saw what they're doing. And, you know, Wayne Dawkins, phase one, he started one. And, you know, then all of a sudden, I think 2012, May is where Athlete Institute, which is now Orangeville Prep, they started one with more funding and bigger buildings and opportunity and everything. And then it just grew until it is what it is now. [00:16:09] Speaker B: How do you think, like, the launch of prep school kind of changed the culture of basketball in this country? [00:16:15] Speaker A: Well, the biggest thing that you can see is how the landscape and the opportunities have changed is the fact that now kids don't have to go to the States. They can still go if they want to, because some kids are now going to the States for certain prep schools, but you don't have to. You have a guy like Jamal Murray will stay here and still go to Kentucky or, you know, even thought Maker, he went to the NBA from prep School, you know, and different Elijah Fisher, you know what I mean? [00:16:44] Speaker B: Leonard Miller. G league. [00:16:45] Speaker A: Yeah, G League. All these guys, right. They, they still get their opportunities. So now they get a little taste of what the Americans are getting. And rather than unfortunately, you know, from funding from, you know, just share politics, you know, things are not happening at regular high schools anymore because a lot of the prominent high schools faded away. Right. Eastern Commerce. [00:17:09] Speaker B: Do you miss that though? [00:17:10] Speaker A: I missed that. Those are the days. Those are the days because, you know, those guys are real. Like, I remember I had maybe like 15 guys from Eastern Commerce that play for grassroots, like, because every single one of those guys were dogs. Every single one of them. So when you go on the road, aau, these coaches are going to see what's up. And then from, from Anthony Cunningham, nicknamed the web, to at 5, 9 to, you know, whoever Jamal McGlor at 6, 10, 6 11. The coaches were coming like these guys could ball, you know, I mean, so it was real back then, you know, high school was real. You had Bathurs, you had run a Mead, you had Mother Teresa, you had Henry Carr, which now transitioned to a prep, you know what I mean, with Paul Meldick there and stuff like that. [00:18:01] Speaker B: So I see Henry Carter has his own prep. [00:18:03] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So, you know, it's, it's, it's great to see the evolution and it's, you know, it's kind of flattering to see that, you know, I kind of kick started that and had that little vision, you know, so thank God for that, that I was able to, you know, see the light that we needed to get bigger and better. Because I thought, I thought that unfortunately the regular high school model wasn't working. Had to go to academy prep school model. [00:18:27] Speaker B: Why do you think it wasn't working? [00:18:29] Speaker A: Because not, not every teacher. Well, maybe back up teachers don't get paid to coach. So a teacher gets paid to teach. So he's not going to put everything into it. You know, he has to go home to his family. Rightly so, you know what I mean? He can't stay until 6 o', clock, till 7 o' clock and no, he needs to get paid or you have to have an outside person that comes in and does that job. And there wasn't enough really good teachers that were also coaches. There were some, like a Roy Radna, like a Simeon Mars, like a John Petroshak, like a Bob Mado. There's some iconic coaches out there that, that, you know, were passionate about the game. But you know, unfortunately, you know, time went on and they Retired or moved on. And you know, other people just. There was too much for them to also be a teacher and a coach. This is too much for them to do. So, you know, it was, it was needed for these kids to get better. And the biggest thing that changed with it was afsa. You know what I mean? AFSA was so resistant to kids opportunity, you know, that kids decided that I'm not going to sit out a year. You know, I mean, I need to play. My time's gonna be up in high school soon. So if you're. I'm not gonna play at this high school. I'm gonna go to a prep school either in the States or another foreign prep school where I could play right away. I don't have to sit out. I'm gonna get legit training and exposure and, you know, competition and everything. And so that kind of, you know, evolved into that. [00:20:04] Speaker B: It's crazy because I don't hear anything about officers anymore. [00:20:06] Speaker A: I know. [00:20:07] Speaker B: Which is just. Yeah. Sad. [00:20:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Like, like Oakwood wins also all the time, but no one ever knows anymore. [00:20:12] Speaker B: No one cares. [00:20:13] Speaker A: Which is like one year when I was at Crestwood Prep, we won offset 20 right before COVID and after we dominated also one by like 50 something against some school. I was, I was, I was thinking that, you know, the camera is going to come out, the reporter is going to come in and interview us. So I was saying, guys, hang out and then no one came. Was like crickets and like, okay. Only thing we heard is like, hey, there's this virus that's spreading in the world, so we need to get home and, and start, you know, being careful about stuff. So, you know, that's what it is. [00:20:47] Speaker B: It's crazy, but like, we're talking about the, like the prep schools obviously evolving. I feel like there's so many now, I can't even keep track. What's your thoughts just on the amount. Are they out of control in your opinion? [00:21:00] Speaker A: Yes, I think that prep school is a little bit out of control because now it's like just like parents are starting prep schools, trainers are starting prep schools. A random person is, you know, leaving another bigger prep school program and starting his own because of, you know, situations that he had with that original prep school. So it's good to have more opportunities for these kids. But it's not easy. It's not easy. You, you gotta follow the guidelines, the protocols. You gotta do it right. You gotta be governed by somebody. You know, you can't just be. Because you'll hear horror stories about kids Paying thousands, tens of thousands of dollars and not get nothing from it. They're losing their money and the coach is leaving and you don't know where he is and, and all these different things are happening. Kids are not graduating, the class is not counting, they're not taking real con. So there is some, some the negative side of prep schools. But for the predominantly most people there, if they do the research and they get educated and make the calls and, and, and, and speak to people and not just trust anyone, then they'll be okay. Because it's needed now. Because unfortunately the regular high school system isn't working now basketball wise in terms of exposure, development, competition and opportunity. So, so you gotta look out for somewhere but you can't just, just because it looks nice on ig. Then you say I'm gonna go there because you don't know what's really gonna happen. [00:22:28] Speaker B: Yeah. What would you do to sort of like regulate it? [00:22:32] Speaker A: I, I would have a governing body. I feel that every prep school has to be part of. You know, there's two governing bodies right now in terms or three almost in terms of the MPA from MPH and osba, oba. And then there's. What's it called? There's, well, there's a platinum league they have as well that I think is has good government governance now because it's separated. Some prep schools are scholastic, they're actually brick and mortar, you know what I mean? And there's some non scholastic that operate join the high school season to give another compliment their high school season. If they're not at a regular prep school and they travel and play within. That means like Platinum has that. I think NPH has that and Premier has that. So you gotta be belong to a governing body that regulates what you're doing and compartmentizes you into a particular division that that's where you're supposed to be. So everyone is doing the right thing. Yeah. [00:23:41] Speaker B: Do you think like from what you started and the AAU has this sort of like stayed your original vision to what you had in mind? Now obviously it's evolved and like there's so many like. Do you feel like it shifted to something different? [00:23:54] Speaker A: I don't think that it evolved to something different that I vision. I think it's, it's a little bit much like I said before, it needs to be regulated. But it's good because I remember back in the day it was just only taps and that's it. So I only could take 15 guys and that's it. So other kids are on the street, just going to regular schools, not, you know, going to JUCO or OCAA or whatever and not making it academically, not getting no exposure. And also, you know, it just wasn't there for everybody with au, it was just had a few teams and that's it. So it's good that more teams are popping up, you know, I mean, but, you know, it has to be regulated. So it's good that you can help more people out there, you know, because I still look out for random guys that hit me up or people I know in their programs that needed. Need a, you know, assistance with their players and so forth. I'm. I'm super Canadian, you know, I mean, in terms of helping kids that need an opportunity, deserve an opportunity, want an opportunity. So it's good that you can help more kids now. [00:25:03] Speaker B: Yeah, it's dope because I'll see or hear about kids having like three prep schools in Canada. Recruiting him, you know, like, at the time, like you said, taps was just one. You can only take 15. But now, like, there's a kid that's. He has options to choose. You know, it's like it's your pick of the litter, kind of, right? [00:25:17] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So it's good because it makes the other ones, you know, smarten up and shape up and fix up. You can just say, they can leave. Yeah, I can leave. I can go here. So you better do me right or I'm leaving. There's been some guys that have left the prep school in the first semester and showed up at another prep school in the second semester. They're playing up both, you know, I mean, so, you know, there's. There's some rules that need to be tightened up to make sure everything's good. But in the overall, it's good for the kids. You know, they get more power. Before they had no power. They had to just concede to the. The adults and the system. But now, you know, they have more, you know, power. Just like in NCAA and, And everything. [00:25:56] Speaker B: Else, we'll talk about NCAA and a bit the transfer. I feel like it's. It's got a kind of out of hand, but I want to get your thoughts on that. But before we do, we talked about, like, obviously you. A lot of kids, you sent a lot of guys to the States too, to play prep school, that kind of stuff. Tell me about that. When a kid comes to you and they're like, hey, I'm thinking about going to the States, prep school is offering me here. What stuff? What stuff do you talk to them about, about, like whether this is a good opportunity, whether you shouldn't, whether you should, like what's the debate, what's the back and forth when you're talking to them about that? [00:26:26] Speaker A: Okay, well, there's two levels to that. I talk to kids about when they're thinking about going to prep schools in either Canada, US and so the general thought is you have a list of questions, you know, that you ask the prep school program to show proof that they're legit. If it's in the States, you want to know accreditation, you want to know alumni of guys have gone somewhere and you want to actually visit them. Always visit a U.S. prep school to really see, you know, what's going on, where you're going to live, where you're going to go to school, how the gym is, talk to some people and so forth. So you always want to go there, you want to visit and then you never, you always gotta be really skeptical of their websites because people that are good with websites can really make it really good and it can look amazing. Right. So you have to always, you know, be skeptical and do research and double check and get references and, and really vet it to make sure that it's legit. That's the general and then the in depth one is now I have a service that I provide, you know, that goes deeper into it to make sure having that knowledge and that experience of that. I'll call the prep school's coaches and directors and I'll do my resources and talk, cross reference it with college coaches and other prep school coaches and ask them what they think about certain schools and then I can get a good idea of what it is and see is it better to go to the States, is better to stay here and what it costs and how you can negotiate that and all that stuff. So there's two levels to it. But you, you can't just pick a prep school or choose a prep school because it looks good and go that that's the, the worst thing you could do. [00:28:15] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a good point. Corey Joseph, Tristan Thompson, they obviously went to prep school in the States. What can you tell me about that? And like how that happened? And obviously they were killing it here in Toronto and Canada and then the opportunity comes out. I think they were at what Finley, Finley Prep was, St. Benedict was the first one, right. That Tristan went to. Can you tell me about the. How that happened? [00:28:36] Speaker A: Sure, yeah, definitely. You know, I had guys like Tristan Thompson and Corey Joseph and, and Mike Cabongo and all those guys. You know, they dominated the level they're at here. So for instance, Corey, one officer in, in the 10th grade. You know what I mean? [00:28:53] Speaker B: That's crazy, you know, I mean, he. [00:28:54] Speaker A: Was the captain, the starter, you know, whatever in 10th grade. So there's no room for growth, you know, at that level. And in my mind then that's when I knew that this guy could be a pro. If he's doing that at that age because of his IQ and his defense, then you know, we got to get him all what he needs. And unfortunately, Canada right now, you know, doesn't have that. You know what I'm saying? So that's when I started doing re. Spoke to his parents, spoke to him, and they all wanted, they thought it was a great idea. So I did research to, you know, made that happen. In terms of Finley Prep and with, with Tristan, same thing in the ninth grade, he was the best power forward in Canada in the ninth grade, you know, I mean, you know, playing seniors, dominating everybody, the whole nine. So same thing. You got to go, you got to go get the challenge and go out there, get better. Because when you, when you go to a school, you can't be the best player in the program. It's not good for your development, you know what I mean? Because you have no one to challenge you. So I sent him to St. Benedict's and they had Samardo Samuels and he was 6, 10, 2, 50, you know what I mean? So now Tristan has to go against a guy that was, you know, top 30 in the country, getting all these offers every day he has to play against them. So that's going to be great for his development, you know what I mean? Corey Joseph goes to Findlay. He has to play with Avery Bradley every day. They're both, you know, smart and defensive minded guards. So, you know, they're gonna, you know, our iron sharpens iron. So those are the kind of situations that if someone is a potential pro, they gotta go. It rhymes, but that's what it is. Like whatever it be, you know, RJ Barrett or other guys like that, they gotta go. But some parents decide that, hey, let's try to make it work here, like Elijah Fisher or Jamal Murray, whatever. As long as they have a plan for it, it could work. Because now it's, you know, you use AAU as the filter to get it to that level. [00:31:00] Speaker B: Yeah. Speaking going back to Tristan and Corey, I believe they're part of the first Canadian team to win a US AU Major tournament with grassroots. Can you tell me about that, how that Happened. And take me back to those days when you guys are just dominating the circuit. [00:31:17] Speaker A: Wow. Up until that time, we hadn't lost a game in Canada with the group that we had. We're so dominant. And that year we had, if I can remember, all the guys we had. Junior Cadougan, Jason Kalis, Mike Cabongo, Brady Heslop, Corey Joseph, Tristan Thompson, Dwight Powell, Ronaldo Dixon. Like, we were so loaded. [00:31:44] Speaker B: That's a roster. [00:31:45] Speaker A: Oh, my goodness. Like, I would just sit down like this and coach, I just said, okay, go in, go in. Because everyone already knew what to do. I didn't have to call timeout and throw the board down on the floor and strategize. We did it in practice and where we met, and then they went out there and made it happen. And we're so dominant that we'd be teams that were highly ranked, that were Nike teams that had all these potential pros and ranked guys and five stars. We had this moniker called Take Names. Take Names and Take Teams names. And that's what they were so hungry. They didn't care about who you were, what you were ranked, what stars you had. They just wanted to take your name so they could get that opportunity. They get that offer. So, you know, we won the Super 64 tournament in Vegas that year, but leading up to it, we won 13 tournaments that year. You know, we won 13 tournaments that year, and we end up being ranked number one in one of the polls after we won the tournament because we. We. We beat historical teams. Like, in the championship, we beat Compton Magic. Like, they've probably had, like, 80 NBA players in their history. You know what I'm saying? And we beat them. And so that. That was a joy, that that changed the trajectory. And the talk about Canadian basketball, before they knew, oh, they have some D1 players, but when we won that, it's like, they got pros. Now they are pros because they beat all these teams that have pros. So that was such a joy to coach and, you know, fond memories. I'd love to have a reunion with those guys and just talk about all their, you know, experience with it. I remember to this day in the semifinals, we played against Double Pump Elite from California. I didn't realize it until years after when I was having a dinner with Corey Joseph when he was a Spurs, and Kawhi Leonard was there as well. And we were talking, and he was like, yeah, Coach. Remember, we. You guys beat us, beat our butts that game. I was like, wait a second. And then everything just came back to me, you know what I mean? They had Kawhi Leonard, Paul George Klay Thompson and I think James Johnson and other guys that were highly ranked too. And we beat him by 35, you know, I mean like I was like, man, like that team was so good, man, like any, any game anybody could start and we'd be good, you know what I mean? It wasn't like, it wasn't like this. It was kind of like this. You know, it's a little small drop off in terms of what everybody brought to the table. So that was a joy like that. That team should have its own documentary because it changed the trajectory of so much others programs. Au thoughts of Canadian, the whole nine, everything. It did so much that it should have its own documentary. [00:34:40] Speaker B: I was gonna ask like, what was that Wave Life, because a few years later obviously Corey Joseph, Tristan Thompson ended up getting drafted. What was that momentum like at that time? [00:34:49] Speaker A: Yeah, it went from like a couple schools going to Canada to like now every coach is going to Canada and sending their assistants because like there's a whole bunch of players up there because they're these guys down there. They did it au, they're proven it in prep school. So there's got to be more. And then now let's go and get them, you know what I mean? So now all the, the, the, the lens is now turned to Canada, you know, I mean, so this happened before. Sure, Shay is great and wonderful, he's on top of the world. But you know, these media guys been not saying that, oh, Canada is on the rise. They've been on the rise. You know, it now just, it just calming culminated to a guy like him now taking advantage of all the opportunities and now, you know, really bring it to the highest level ever. [00:35:38] Speaker B: So yeah, because I'm not sure if you saw the Jeff Teapot podcast recently where he was like, I'm tired of these Canadians. Yeah, yeah, when you saw that and. [00:35:46] Speaker A: It'S like, yeah, when I saw that, I was laughing, I was, I was giving him that, that Michael Jordan laugh. When he was looking at the videos, I was giving him that kind of laugh, you know, I mean, because hey, we're here to stay, you know, I mean I always thought that there's good enough Canadians to make it happen. We just didn't have enough of them because we're only 40 million and they're 300 million. But a lot of the ones are here and the ones from their parents are either immigrants from the Caribbean, from Africa, from Europe, from America, from wherever they. They've helped the whole, you know, evolution of the players get to that level as well for yourself. [00:36:25] Speaker B: What's made you, like, stay in the grassroots scene? Because I'm guessing, like, after all you've accomplished, we still haven't got to, like, the Crestwood era of what you've done, but, like, in terms of, like, what's made you stay in the grass, I'm guessing you probably had offers to. [00:36:37] Speaker A: Yes. [00:36:38] Speaker B: Go do other stuff. [00:36:39] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. I'm not gonna say what school it is, but I may. But, like, there's been many a times that during my. My time in. In basketball that D1 coaches saw, you know, what I did to the table to bring it up and. Because it takes a special person to coach, train, motivate, direct recruit, you know, all that stuff. You know, some guys are good trainers, some guys are good coaches, some guys are good recruiters, but it's hard to have someone do all of that, wear all those hats successfully. And, you know, I thank the Lord that I was able to do that. And, you know, I had opportunities that came. One high major coach that I've known for, like, 35 years, he. [00:37:25] Speaker B: Can we get a hint? [00:37:27] Speaker A: Okay. Based on that, I'll tell you. So, basically, when Kyler Perry went to Kentucky in 07, right after he made that run with Memphis, his top assistant, Josh Pashner, had hit me up and he's like, ro, I just got the job at Memphis because Caliperi left to go to Kentucky. I'm hiring you right now, so get a couple of your top players and let's go. You know what I mean? So I was like, you know, my heart was pounding when that happened because he's saying like, 200,000 in the car and house and all these different things. And so I talked to Corey and Tristan and they're like, hey, sounds good. So it so happened that we were going to this tournament in. In Arkansas, which is only an hour away, Little Rock from Memphis. So I purposely made our flight to go connect in Memphis and then go to Arkansas so then we could unofficial there at that same time. So we actually went there and saw the school, talked to the coach and everything, and. And those guys were loving it and they want to make it happen. But then some other things domestically, you know, my wife didn't. Wasn't ready to leave and, you know, stuff like that. And I was thinking, like, who's going to take care of all these kids and grassroots and all that stuff, and, you know, I end up not going, you know, and. And to this day, Coach Pastner bugs me about it. Do you regret it? That's one of my biggest regrets in. In life that I should have taken because I would have been a. A head coach at a D1 for sure. Because that was 07. [00:38:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:00] Speaker A: You know, I mean, so I would. I definitely would be a D1 coach at that time. And I. If I had to go over again, I would have took it, let my wife stay at home and then recruit in Canada all the time. You know, I'm saying. And then that would have fixed that in terms of she didn't have to move, you know, I mean, because that was the biggest thing of that. And I still have some different foot soldiers and assistants that would still run grassroots and. And those kind of things. So. But, you know, things happen for a reason, and I'm still here. And, you know, now I'm helping guys, you know, to get jobs and move up the ladder and so forth. One of my former players and. And protege, Yusuf Ali. Rhino. Rhino, right. He's. He's now. He was the first at Arizona State, and now he's at West Virginia, and he's moving up the ladder. And different guys like him are doing the same thing in different levels in the NBA and college and in prep schools and all that stuff. So, you know, it's great to have a really, really big tree, you know, to say, at the end of the day, my legacy is that I didn't just do me, because I could have just said, I'm out of here. I'm going to D1. I'm going. I even had an offer, and I won't say this one. I even had an offer to be an NBA scout. You know, one of my mentors reached out to me about that, and I didn't take it. And that's probably one of my other regrets. And, you know, I was looking out for the kids and, you know, the next generation and, you know, so it's. It's great that all these people are doing great things and doing their thing. So I'm proud of them. And, you know, it's a good thing. [00:40:33] Speaker B: Shout out to Yusuf, too, because you mentioned, like, the tree is important, like having people that were able to do in Yusuf, I feel like he's. What he's done. I think he's probably the first Somali Canadian to do what he's doing, you know? [00:40:43] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:40:44] Speaker B: Now what? Coaching West Virginia, I feel like they've been the Big 12. No. [00:40:47] Speaker A: Yeah, they're Big 12. [00:40:48] Speaker B: And Arizona State was also. [00:40:49] Speaker A: They were the Big 12. But I think they're in the SEC now. I think they realigned. Yeah. Because of football. Whatever. And I think they're the SEC now. [00:40:58] Speaker B: Shout out to him, though. He's been doing his thing. But your eye for talent, I feel like, doesn't get as much love because I. I had Marlo on his podcast and he's like, you're the first person to tell him about Toby Fournier, who's obviously had killing ACC freshman of the year. Tell me just about your eye for talent. Where does it come from when. Tell me about the way you look at the game. [00:41:18] Speaker A: Well, obviously, I think I got it from God and. Because I can't say that I created it, but I just. I just think different than most people. They, like, no one thought that Brady Heslop would have went D1, and he went high major and he played in the G League, and he. He had a cup of tea with the Raptors and he played on Team Canada. No one would ever think that. Even. He didn't even. He told me, he's, coach, I'm just gonna go to Guelph and call it a day. And I said, no, I see something special for you. And then all of a sudden to happen. And so I look at different things. I really, you know, look at someone and see, you know, how their feet and. And what they have to do. They have. There has to be something. Can I see it factor with them somewhere? And now let's cultivate that and let's maximize that and let's figure it out. So I do a different process than most people say, hey, there's LeBron James. You know, he's going to NBA. Duh. Like anyone could do that. But I'll see that other kid, you know, like that. Like, for instance, Shaden Sharpe, you know, when Shane Sharp played for me out of London, like, I saw something special in him and he kind of didn't. I had to bring it out of him, right, because he would. He would, you know, he's athletic as anything, but he wouldn't always having that dunking mentality all the time like he does now. And I would always get on him. And really, I made him so mad that he's like, okay, fine, I'm just gonna dunk everything now because you're just on me. He's a nice guy, finger roll this and that. He, you know, take a jump shot here and there, which is fine, but you want to get to that next level, the highest level, you gotta show something really special. So I like to bring the best out of people, you know, and. And see if they have the it factor. You know, this guy, it's hidden there somewhere, you know, and you try to find it. And so, you know, thank God that I was able to do that for most people. And. And that's why I think differently than most people do. [00:43:12] Speaker B: What did you see about Toby? [00:43:14] Speaker A: So Toby, in the sixth grade, that's when I started working with her and training her at. When I was at Crestwood Prep, because she'd come over there before she. I just, you know, we convinced her to come to Crestwood. And so what happened was her mom was Lucy from Degrassey, the original Degrassi High. Oh, yeah. [00:43:36] Speaker B: I didn't know that. [00:43:37] Speaker A: Lucy. Yeah. Yeah, she was Lucy. And she was tall and she was biracial. And then she got married to a guy, Craig, from Montreal, and he was tall as well. And so when they come to drop them off all the time, I was always looking at them and looking at their feet to make sure they don't have knock knees and, you know, this and that, and they're all standing up strong and big legs and, you know, they had that girth. And so we're training and stuff. And then I say, you know what? I want you to be the first girl to ever dunk it. So from now on, we're going to work on this Vertimax machine that we had, Crestwood all the time. So every practice we do our different skills and drills. Now let's get on the Vernamax and do all the different plyometrics and everything. And then. And then I. With Elijah Fisher being there and all the different guys, Ramad Dean and Zayden Cross and Jacoby Neath and everybody. And they're practicing, I say, you know what? Stay. After we train and watch them practice, you know, and really get motivated from what they're doing. And every practice they're flying and dunking and going after it and everything. And then she's getting those thoughts and that motivation of mine that, you know, she wants to get there. So, you know, I just saw the legs. The legs in their. In her parents, and I thought that she would. And she had those legs, too. And I think. I thought that the legs would carry her far in basketball because you need that. That leg strength to move and. And run and jump and be tough with it and her just being there from a young age, she plays tough and physical and stuff like that. So. [00:45:17] Speaker B: Yeah, and she's killing it. Yeah, she's ncaa and I got like WNBA people hitting me up asking her. [00:45:21] Speaker A: For sure that's going to happen. For sure, for sure that's going to happen. You know what I mean? So, yeah. So, you know, great, great kudos to her. [00:45:28] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, we didn't see Grassroots. We kind of touched on it. Like the players you've had come in. How did it start? Tell me about the origin story of Grassroots and then the players. We talked about Nick Stauskis, we talked about Dwight Powell, Brady Heslop. When you think about the talents that come out of it, like, what goes through your mind and. Yeah. What's the origin story? [00:45:46] Speaker A: Well, a lot of people don't know the back. Back story. When I first came to Canada from Jamaica, my parents both were entrepreneurs, so they both worked downtown. And, you know, we lived good. And so because of that, we lived in a predominantly white neighborhood. I was the only black kid in the neighborhood. So everyone played hockey. So I played hockey because that's what everyone did. I didn't even know about basketball like that. I knew about soccer, I knew about cricket, coming from Jamaica, but now hockey, I'm going to NHL. I'm thinking about all, you know, all these, you know, Mike Palmertier and, you know, all these, you know, black NBA guys, you know, I mean, NHL guys. And it wasn't till I was 12 where I experienced a lot of racism with that that I didn't know about like that. And then I said, you know what? I'm not too happy about, you know, being in this kind of, you know, environment. And then my sister who played basketball, she taught me how to play basketball. And then I got my passion from that. So, hey, I got to catch up to all these kids that are, were playing basketball since they're young. And now I'm 12 and not playing basketball. So I really worked in, in a year and I, I caught up to all the guys, all my friends, to the point where they saw the difference. When I did play with them, I'll play them all the time. So I started training them at 13 and I charged them a dollar an hour. That's what that was my charge. Because back then, you know, kids didn't have it like that. But you said, you know, I'm working you, so you gotta give me something. And a dollar could go a long way back then. [00:47:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:47:18] Speaker A: And. And then at 13, at 15, I was coaching, you know, because those same kids I was training, I was like, hey, we got, we got to coach you and help you to get better so you can do some things. And then when I was 18 is when I started. I met with my high school coach, coach John Petrashack, when I was at running me. And I was trying to go D1 myself because, you know, by then my mom was a single parent, family provider. And I was like, I don't want my mom to have to get a loan to go to York or whatever, right? So I was like, I'm thinking about doing research on going D1 or D2. And, you know, I said, you know, in order to get the exposure, you know, we gotta go down to the States, you know. Cause I was going down by then. I was going to my cousins all the time and seeing him playing AU and seeing what the world is down there. And then he said, you know, you should definitely do that, do your research and do that. So he inspired me to go down to get in the library every day and do my research. And then I did research, found out that you can. At that time, they had gyms for free. You can go to any high school in Toronto. And if you do it right, and it's a. You know, it's a program to keep kids off the street, a tutoring program, whatever, then you can get the gym for free. So that was great because those kids could afford it. So I had, like 15, 20 gyms along the subway line, you know, from Eastern all the way to Humberside. [00:48:48] Speaker B: Big time. [00:48:48] Speaker A: Yeah. And so we'd have practice all the time. Back then you had the phone booth. You had to go and call it the phone booth and make sure guys are coming. And, oh, you had MSN Messenger. That's how you did a group message, MSN messenger, to tell everyone, hey, we're at this gym today. We're at that gym today. And everyone would show up. And it just took off from there. And then I said, this talent is ridiculous. These guys, you know, great to go to, you know, Ryerson at the time, or York, but these guys are D1 players. So then I started doing research on Buffalo and all these different schools and just close by. And then I saw that on their website, actually, no, not their website. They're. They had like a message board and. And it's talking about. They had a camp going on down there. So I said, guys, let's organize and go to this camp. They had. So we went to the camp and like, maybe there's about. Maybe 50 or so D1 coaches there. And a bunch of the guys got offers. And after that, they're like, hey, you gotta go to Philly and you gotta go to Detroit. You gotta do New Jersey and bring the guys down there. This is aau. You gotta do that. And then they kind of got me going on that, and I came back and I just started the whole process of aau, you know what I'm saying? [00:50:05] Speaker B: It's crazy how it's evolved, right? And the. The amount of teams there are now. [00:50:12] Speaker A: Exactly. You know, I was seeing. And kudos to her. I was seeing a team the other day, and, you know, the mom, you know, like, she started the program. You know what I mean? She's like, hey, I don't trust these other guys. I want my son to have a program, and I'm leading it, and I'm making sure that he's good, he's safe and everything. And she started that program. So, you know, you have so much programs out there that. To help all these kids, because back then I only could do three, four teams, and all these other kids didn't get an opportunity. So it's great to see that it's evolved so much that there's teams all over Canada and all that, different age groups and everything. So it's been great. I want to also add that when I was evolving it, when I was playing, I used to go to this. This. This. This gym over at George Brown College, and the people there also helped me out in terms of. They had a league, and from that league, I was able to take a team to the states and. And all that stuff. So George Brown is big in my evolution of AAU as well. [00:51:13] Speaker B: Shout out to Georgia Brown from, obviously, the players you've coached, that kind of. How many would you say, like, you helped earn a D1 scholarship? Looking back? [00:51:23] Speaker A: Well, if I always counted this way, for guys I coached, train, or mentored, the last time I looked at it was 625 guys. Yeah. Girls, it's somewhere in the 200s, you know, I mean, and then you have Youth Sports and Juco and D2 and Neia and even have a few D3s mixed in there that really want to get that academic experience out of it. So, you know, so, yeah, it's been. It's been a run. It's been a run for sure. [00:51:58] Speaker B: Yeah. We were talking about nil transfer a bit. What's that like when you. When you're seeing it now, kids making a lot of money, I'm guessing it's changed. I'm also just thinking about the Mike Cabongo situation and how that happened, like, how unfortunate that was. And then now you look at NA and I'm like, yeah, y' all should have Been doing this. [00:52:17] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Mike. Mike should sue the ncaa. You know what I'm saying? Cause, like, you know, now it's wild, wild west, you know, you could do whatever you want, no issues. And, you know, it's not like he took money. He was just, you know, want to go train, Go train with his boy. [00:52:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:52:36] Speaker A: And because his boy was obviously in the NBA then took care of all the costs. What's the problem? You know, I mean, it's not like he stole money, took money, whatever. So it's crazy how that happens. But it's good now that they've given the power to the players. Now coaches better do right by them because if you don't, I'm out of here. And some other school is going to give me a better nil situation to go there. Now I can. I don't have to call back home all the time and ask my parents is wire me money and send me money. I'm good. I'm probably gonna. Some of them are sending the money to the parents to help them out and pay the bills. You know what I mean? Some guys. Some guys, like AJ the bad side that got 7 million, you know, nil plus, you know what I mean? And regular kids are getting 20,000, and that's going to do a lot for them in terms of travel and phone bills and daily, you know, expenses and stuff. So it's great that is there. They need to just, you know, you know, tighten it up a little bit in terms of the rule. What would you tighten up the time that you could be in the portal? You know, I mean, because now for people that don't know before, you'd have to sit out a year. Now you don't have to sit out a year, and you could transfer as much time until your eligibility runs out. So now I would tighten it up in terms of maybe one month, you know, from March until April, and that's it. [00:53:57] Speaker B: It's kind of crazy to me that it happens like during the tournament. Like, you hear like. Or, like, Right. I think. I don't know when exactly, but, like, right before, like, you'll hear about names. Yeah. I'm like, bro, let's watch the NCAA tournament. [00:54:08] Speaker A: Exactly. So the problem is that happened this year. Some coaches I know didn't have access to certain players because they already made in their mind or their people back home that they're going to transfer. So they decided not to play in the NCAA tournament because they're going to transfer. So a coach might go to a game with eight players with nine players, with 10 players, with seven players because this guy's not playing because you. He wants to sit out because he's about to transfer. You know what I mean? So they gotta wait till the actually NCAA tournament is over and maybe they get a certain timeframe until you can call these kids and the transfer portal is gone. You know, so then that way that can at least help the high school kids to get some opportunities because their opportunities are shrunk. You know what I mean? Where they didn't get anything. Now they gotta go to Juco now they gotta go D2. Now they gotta stay home and go to U Sports and so forth because, you know, there just not enough opportunities. [00:55:05] Speaker B: I was going as. How has like the transfer portal impacted like recruitment in Canada? Is it harder to get an offer now unless you're like a five star? I feel like we're seeing rare like five stars out of Canada. Most of them are in the States now, right? [00:55:18] Speaker A: Yeah, it's. It's super hard to. To get a scholarship now. It's not as hard for in the girls division because if you're good, you're going D1 with the guys. They want the cream of the top cream of the crop in terms of the top guys. And it's hard for point guards to go D1. Like we, you know, there's, you know, I won't see his name, but there's a top point guard. I thought it was a mid D1 and he had to go to Juco. He didn't get a D1 offer, which is crazy. And he's way better than a lot of guys that actually got offers because now exposure means a lot more now. How much tournaments are you going to the States? How much. How much times you're picking that phone and calling coaches and getting them up and sending tapes out. All that work is really needed now to really expose yourself and be connected enough to get a scholarship. So it's harder. So now guys are now going to Juco and go in D1 going D2 and go D1 going to U Sports. That's the newest thing. Like one kid from Laurentian went to Kansas. [00:56:21] Speaker B: Crazy. Yeah, shout out to him. [00:56:23] Speaker A: Yeah, shout out to him. [00:56:24] Speaker B: I've never heard of a story like that ever. [00:56:25] Speaker A: He's like 5, 6 and he's going to Kansas. You know what I mean? So, you know, I mean, it works because coaches want maturity. They don't want to babysit you if you're gonna go D1. The headaches and all the different issues they have no Time for that. They're trying to win so they can keep their job and take care of their family. So they need guys that are mature, that have experience, that know what they need to do to go to a program and step in is youth sports. [00:56:51] Speaker B: They're out now, would you say, yeah, youth sports. [00:56:53] Speaker A: Before, no one wanted to go to youth sports because like, oh, that's a dead end road. But now there's life. Now go there, dominate, do your thing, put up good numbers, get some good tape and go D1. Because now coaches can see you that you're now at 21, 22. When they saw you at 18, you weren't ready. [00:57:11] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm going to do an episode on that soon. I'll probably get a youth sports coach because I feel like some people are. [00:57:16] Speaker A: Wondering, like there's two sides right there. [00:57:17] Speaker B: Some people love it. [00:57:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:57:18] Speaker B: Some people hate it. [00:57:19] Speaker A: Yeah. Some youth sports coaches like one I know he's like, hey, I'm a capitalize on it. I, I'm going to get guys to come to my school, get ready one or two years and then ship them off to D1. So I'll get more top guys who are thinking about D1 and then we're good. And then some coaches like, no, I don't want to put all these years into this kid. And now it messes up my recruiting and my, you know, winning percentages and all that stuff. And so there's two sides to it. You know what I mean? So that'll be a good episode. [00:57:46] Speaker B: That'd be a good episode. [00:57:47] Speaker A: Both sides of the. [00:57:48] Speaker B: Both sides, man. Get both their perspectives. I might hit you up on like who hates it, who likes it, so I can get their thoughts. [00:57:54] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. I have two guys in my mind already about it. [00:57:57] Speaker B: Okay. I love. That'll be a fun episode in terms of we're talking about obviously nil transfer portal, that kind of stuff. How many kids now would you say are going to NCAA D1 before now before compared to before the. [00:58:15] Speaker A: Say there was approximately 200 in Canada going D1. Now they're this last year, probably like 40. Yeah. So it's a huge difference of guys that had to pivot and go juco, stay Youth Sports, Go D2 or some. There's some. There's a guy I know that he was like D1 or nothing and he doesn't play no more. He goes, just goes to university. And now he's focusing on, you know, being his, you know, in his career, going and say that, you know, that's my goal. Didn't happen. I don't have no motivation no more to have to, you know, thug it out and, and grind it out in juco and then go D1 or U Sports and go D1 or D2 and go D1. So he just said, I'm just going to go to university and go on my career. So, yeah, the numbers have really changed. [00:59:06] Speaker B: Is there anything outside just the transfer port that's impacting that? Is it like coaches are not inclined to come to Canada more? [00:59:12] Speaker A: No, I think coaches are now they see that there's ballers here, so they, they'll come. I think that Covid kind of slowed it down for a while because at that time, hardly if any coaches would come up for until like 23, 24 and they're slowly getting back, you know, the, the, the, the machine is working again to get them all coming. But I think that with Shay winning the mvp, now they say, I need, I need me another Shay, you know, so now they're coming, they're coming. I was just talking to a coach when I was on the way to the studio and he was D2 and he's like, I'm coming to Canada. I'm trying to get that guy because if he slips to the crack and he doesn't go D1, I want to get him, you know, so If I get D1 guys going to D2, then I'll win and I'll be better. So I think that, you know, people are still seeing what it is. Yeah. [01:00:02] Speaker B: What are your thoughts on just the state of basketball in Canada right now? Are we in a good place? Because obviously we had four Canadians in the finals doing their thing, all contributing to winning. What are your thoughts on just the grassroots? Whether it's like, are we in a good place, like. Or just like in general? Just like obviously Canada, basketball and that stuff. Are we in a good place? What are your thoughts? [01:00:21] Speaker A: Yes, I think there's. We're in a good place. You know, now there's more diversity in the different levels and, you know, there's more funding. The media, media's jumped on everything. [01:00:34] Speaker B: We're here. [01:00:35] Speaker A: Yeah, you guys are here. You see what's going on in the NBA. So I think more kids are training now. Do you like that, though? [01:00:43] Speaker B: Do you like that? [01:00:44] Speaker A: I like it and I don't like it. [01:00:45] Speaker B: Okay. [01:00:46] Speaker A: Let me tell you why. I like the fact that they're training on their skills. They're form shooting and their ball handling. But now they're becoming more robotic in terms of, you know, I got to do a combo move every time. So rather than just rip through and go. So the conventional ways of movement and just playing hard nosed basketball has kind of been lost in the shuffle. Because now I gotta do all these different moves to get to that same place when I can get there in just one. Rip through and get there. So you know, the trainers and the coaches have to teach that as well and keep that in good perspective. So they don't. It doesn't get out of hand. Because now coach college coaches are still old school. They want to, you know, get to A and B and just do what the coach wants and, and play some defense. Like they still want all that. They don't want the bells and the whistles, you know, all that stuff that. So we gotta, you know, play for them because they're the ones that hold the scholarships and the opportunities. So it's great. But someone asked me the other day, you know, would players from the past be able to, you know, because they talked about KD and Larry Bird. I think they were. Pat Beverly was talking about and obviously Larry Bird, you know, he would then now because if you watch his tapes, Larry Bird, he was doing a step back before step backs even existed. You know when he was doing a natural step backs, he was shooting threes in 79 when it just came and he was the best three point shooter. So if he took more threes and step backs and different moves, he would, then he would be a wing. [01:02:30] Speaker B: They would adjust. [01:02:31] Speaker A: Yeah, he would adjust. You would have got better. He would have took advantage of the technology and the resources so he would even be better. He would have probably got some doctor that fixed his back and he would be like play for 25 years and be the, he would be the greatest of all time. You know what I mean? So that's, that's what I believe. [01:02:49] Speaker B: It's crazy because you mentioned like all these guys are trying to do the tween tween hesi cross before he gets in the room. Like when I think about a guy like you coach like Corey, I feel like he was just straight fundamental, straight. He, you coached him, you probably have better insight on this. But I felt like his change of speed like being able to just like on a dime get to a spot. Can you just tell me about that? And like. Like what? Like you're saying you don't need that and like coaching Corey, what was that like seeing just like obviously he's had a long. [01:03:14] Speaker A: Yeah, he's a coach's dream. Because it's like Corey do this he does that and you don't have to tell him to play defense. He's playing 94ft, he's getting low, he's getting up on the guy, he's getting his hands active, he's getting after it. So he was a joy in terms of fundamentals. That's why he played 15 years in the NBA, you know what I mean? And you know, he had a good run at it and, you know, did a really, really good things. McDonald's on American first round, you know, draftee and you know, won the NBA championships with spurs and all these different team Canada. Like he has a great resume because you know what you're going to get from him. You know what he's going to do. He's going to do the right thing. He's not going to mess up. He's not going to get any trouble with the law or be on different TMZs and stuff like that. He's just going to be a great citizen, work his butt off and be coachable and keep it simple like they say, right? Kiss. Keep it simple, stupid. You know what I mean? That was Corey Joseph. [01:04:13] Speaker B: What was it like seeing your guys kind of win a championship and from the pinnacle get to that stage, basically, like win it all. Like that's the highest level of achievement. [01:04:23] Speaker A: Yeah, it's great, man, because, you know, first I think Tristan did it first and then Corey does it and then Andrew Wiggins does it. And I think I'm missing one more. I think one more guy did it that played for me. I can't remember right now, but I think there's four guys that, yeah, they'll come to mind that played. And it's great that, you know, I was so happy for them, especially when they get a chance to, you know, bring it home to Toronto. You know, Corey and Tristan, they had brought it to Falstaff Community center and you know, and you know, show that, you know, hey, I'm from here, I'm from the six, you know, or, you know, surrounding areas and stuff like that. So it was a great honor. And you know, even Andrew Wiggins brought it back home as well. So it was great that these guys brought it back and you see that your guys that you put time and effort and you, you had the eye that you're going to go somewhere and you know, you go to the highest level where you win a championship like that. So that was great. That was a great, great moment for, you know, a basketball father. You know what I'm saying? [01:05:23] Speaker B: Yeah. Do you consider yourself like A grandfather. When you look back at all the stuff, like kind of overseeing a lot of the stuff, players that have come. Come through. [01:05:30] Speaker A: Oh, for sure. Because I, I view myself as a. As a. I'm a real grandfather in terms of my grandfather to Karras is her name. And I'm also. I've coached players that their fathers played for me. You know what I mean? So I'm basically a grandfather to them as well. You know, to see, you know, from 89 all the way till now, that's a long time. That's. That's spanning, you know, four or five decades. And so, you know, it's been a long time running. So it's great to see the evolution, see all the kids that have been successful and, and the rise of basketball in Canada. So sitting back and just looking at it now, it's great. But the great thing is the passion and being in basketball has made me still be passionate about it. I'm still coaching, I'm still training, I'm still traveling. I'm not like, oh, I want to retire, give it up. Through all the ups and downs, I'm still ready to go to the next situation, find the next young man. The next young man. Always remember this name. His name is jalen Ekenham. He's 13 years old. He's 6, 5, 6, 6. And I think he's going to be the next. [01:06:41] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Okay. Jalen will be watching a lot of pressure on a Canadian basketball show. Talking about, like, you've been here for a while. There's a guy that I feel like had a huge impact, unseen, in a way, in Canadian basketball. George Raveling, a pioneer who died from cancer at the age of 88. Just recently, executive at Nike who was obviously instrumental in bringing Michael Jordan to Nike. If you watched that movie, I think it was Air Jordan. If you watched it, he was part of that. He was obviously also inducted into the Naismith Memorial Basketball hall of fame in 2015. Director of International basketball had a huge impact in growing, I feel like the game in Canada, people don't know. He helped, I think, CIA Bounce become the first. Yes, Nike, YBL team. Shout out to Mark Bain to what do you know about what he's done? And just like his impact in clean basketball, from your understanding? [01:07:32] Speaker A: Well, I've known George Ravlin, you know, the iconic George Ravn, since I think it was 99. And back then when I was, you know, coming up, I saw that, the need for our guys to be sponsored because we're so good and, you know, we needed uniforms and shoes and travel money to get the spots. And I sent him a long email, you know, and about it this out of the blue, say, hey, I'm Ro Russell from Canada. And this, that, that, that, that the whole nine. And one day I was just checking my emails on my laptop and I saw the black on his name and I was like, I was going crazy. Like, what? He actually hit me back because I was like, he's never gonna hit me back. And he hit me back and said, hey, I'm looking to do some things with the Team Canada as well. So I'm probably going to come to Canada and meet with them about start Nike to sponsor Team Canada and I'll come by and set things up for me to see your guys and I'll be able to, you know, talk with you. And then that's how the relationship started. And he actually personally sponsored me for Grassroots. He personally wrote me a check with him and his wife's name on the check because back then it wasn't. There was no Nike Global so they couldn't sponsor Canadian team, you know, so they had American teams. But he actually sponsored me and that's how we got started. So, you know, I'm, you know, sad to see him, you know, leave the, you know, the earth. But you know, he left a great mark globally for what he did and all over and, and how he supported Team Canada and Canadians and the whole nine. So he's a, he's a dear friend and you know, you know, hope his family all the best. [01:09:27] Speaker B: Yeah, I actually spoke to George Raveling I think a few years ago for a story that didn't end up getting published. But he took his time like he was this like maybe three years ago and I was in Portland for the hoops on. So I just wanted to mention that because I, he didn't know who I was, but he was one of the times to just chat. [01:09:46] Speaker A: Yeah, that doesn't surprise me at all because that's how he was with me, you know, coming up. You know, he's like a liking to me and you know, and he spent that time and those kind of things. So it's a, you know, it's a. Fond memories thinking about George and what he did for basketball and Nike and people don't even realize he was a really good NCAA coach as well. [01:10:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:10:09] Speaker A: At USC and Washington State and coach and other places as well. And a mentor to a lot. So he's a guy to think about for sure. [01:10:17] Speaker B: Yeah, I think he was like the first black Coach in. [01:10:20] Speaker A: Yes. [01:10:21] Speaker B: I believe it was the pack. Yeah. [01:10:23] Speaker A: Or something like that. [01:10:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:10:25] Speaker A: Head coach. Yeah. [01:10:26] Speaker B: Shout out to him, man paved the way. Pioneer. And. Yeah. Just wanted to mention, like, his impact. [01:10:31] Speaker A: In Canadian basketball because it's huge. [01:10:33] Speaker B: It's not talked about enough, but. [01:10:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:10:34] Speaker B: People that know. No. [01:10:35] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Because the. The new school, they kind of, you know, because it's gone. He's retired now. He's unfortunately passed away, so they didn't even know. If you say that name, you know, to people that are, like, maybe 25 and younger, they won't know that name, you know, so. But he definitely needs to be mentioned for sure. [01:10:51] Speaker B: Yeah. Shout out to George Raveling. Talking about you, just obviously. Uchen Academy. [01:10:56] Speaker A: Yes. [01:10:56] Speaker B: Program. You retired, though, first? A few years back. Came back. I love to see it. You're like, I can't get enough of this. [01:11:02] Speaker A: I gotta. [01:11:02] Speaker B: I gotta. Tell me about coming back. And. [01:11:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:11:05] Speaker B: How did that come about? What made you decide? And, you know, I love, to be honest. I've been saying this on a podcast. You're the only prep school in Toronto. In Toronto, downtown. [01:11:13] Speaker A: Like. [01:11:14] Speaker B: Like, I can get to you, you know, like, you're not far from me, so. [01:11:17] Speaker A: Exactly. [01:11:17] Speaker B: The other ones, I'm like, shout out to Fort Erie. They're doing their thing, but they're Niagara. Shout out to Royal Crown, Scarborough. Crestwood. It's kind of Scarborough all of a far. You know, I'm like. For me, I'm like, I enjoy being able to go to a prep school that's, you know, downtown Toronto, but tell me the origin story. [01:11:31] Speaker A: You know, so I'm doing my thing at Crestwood Prep, and, you know, after a while, you kind of feel, you know, it's time to make a change. You know, you. You did that. You established that you're on the way. You had, like, almost 20 guys go D1. You won some championships. You know, people now know where Crestwood is. You know, before, they had no idea. They haven't heard of it. They're like, Crescent or, you know, some other school. And now. So you did your thing. So now, hey, I'm gonna look somewhere else. But you know what? I feel that I don't know where to go, what direction to go. So I'll just retire. You know what I mean? And then when you're doing that, you're consulting and, you know, and helping other programs, other kids to do their thing. And then, you know, you say, you know what? I think I'll pull up Michael Jordan and come out. Retirement. [01:12:15] Speaker B: I'm back. [01:12:16] Speaker A: Back you know, because one of the schools I was consulting with was at Uchenna, and I was like, yo, this has a really good potential here, you know, because it's, you know, no girls, nothing wrong with girls at all, but less distractions. Right, right. Because you know how that is. And just basketball, no other sports. And it's right in the heart of Toronto where you can get by subway. And it's not really downtown fully, where, you know, there's too much traffic, parking, whatever. It's right there. And actually, it turned out to be five minutes from where I. I grew up when I first came to Canada, like five minutes from there. So I knew the area really good. And, you know, the director of the program, he does a really good job of, you know, making it happen. And his partner, you know, as well, they're really good educators and they really believe in, you know, helping these kids to, you know, further their careers academically and whatever sports they love. And they, you know, they're good people. And some guys I was working with, they're the ones actually recommended for me to work with uchenna. Rohan Fisher and Devin Taylor and I went over there and then the rest is history. So we're doing our thing out there. We're trying to build it up every day, every year. We're trying to add on different things to it. Now we're in a prep school league in the States, in Dallas, so we're in OSPA as well. In America, we're in Dallas. So they get the best of both worlds. We're having a campus down there as well. You know, we're just building it each year. So I really enjoy it in terms of, you know, having the, you know, the opportunity to do what I feel we should do and, you know, and just growing it, you know, with these international kids at private school. So we have a lot of international kids that you can live on campus. It's right across the street from the school, so it has a lot of potential. So shout out to Uchenna Academy, you know, for working with me and building it up. [01:14:19] Speaker B: What year are you guys in now? [01:14:20] Speaker A: So I'm in year three, but the school, I think, started in 2013 in terms of baby steps and figuring it out and, you know, in and out and taking a hiatus. And now we're in year three consistently, and we'll keep it going. That would probably be one of my last prep school job before I take a stab at the college or professional level. [01:14:44] Speaker B: Nice. Jalen, Is he part of that team? [01:14:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:14:46] Speaker B: So I was Saying, come check out. [01:14:48] Speaker A: I brought him to Uchenna last year when he was a 12 year old. So he was a 12 year old and he would play juniors and seniors at prep. So there'd be times. Last year he played against 18, 19 year old guys in Canada and US. So he's getting his, his hands full, you know, of experience and I think eventually it'll snap and say, okay, I understand it now, you know what I'm saying? Because he's going through that, you know, because it's hard for a kid to play up, you know, five years or six years or seven years, you know, it's, it's easy. Not easy, but it's, it's regular for a kid to play one year, two years up, but to play seven years up, that's hard. [01:15:27] Speaker B: That's crazy. [01:15:28] Speaker A: That's crazy. So it's going to, it's going to benefit him eventually. So I can see changes already in his demeanor, his maturity, in his talent, his confidence and everything. So yeah, so it's great. [01:15:41] Speaker B: How would you describe your time at Crestwood? Obviously there. How many championships you guys end up winning over there? [01:15:46] Speaker A: Well, we won 1. 1. 1 year 19. We won the MPA. MPA. We were doing that then we won off. So the very next year. And then we went to the semifinals a couple times with an MP in osba. But the, the magical year for that run was in, in 2019. Who's on that team? That was Elijah Fisher, Franco Miller. Oh, okay, let's talk about where they went. So Elijah Fisher, he's at Seton hall now. Franco Miller, he went to Ole Miss. Kobe Antwee went to Columbia. He was like a 99 student. [01:16:23] Speaker B: Wow. [01:16:23] Speaker A: Yeah. Jacoby Neath, he signed with Wake Forest. [01:16:28] Speaker B: He's coaching now. [01:16:29] Speaker A: Yeah, he's coaching now back at Crestwood. [01:16:30] Speaker B: I love to see him. [01:16:32] Speaker A: Yeah. So then you also had Trayvon Thomas, he went to Vanderbilt. You had Louis Pachaco, he went to Eastern Michigan. You had Joe Smith. Because I had some Americans too. Joe Smith, he went to, he went to Seton hall and then Buffalo and then you had. What's that? The kid there. This one more kid I had from America, he went to Liberty and I had another kid that went to juco. [01:16:59] Speaker B: Basically the whole roster. [01:17:00] Speaker A: Yeah, basically the whole roster. Like we knew we're going to win that year because we're so dominant from, from top to bottom. So that was a magical year as well. And so good memories. [01:17:10] Speaker B: It's crazy just to think the impact that you've had on basketball, but I'm just going to ask you point blank, do you feel like you and like other pioneers get enough recognition for the stuff that you've done, kind of laying that foundation in the grassroots basketball scene in camp? [01:17:26] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a, that's a tough question because. Yes or no? You know, I think it's great now in my legacy phase that I'm getting people hit me up and, you know, graciously coming on your show and, and different, you know, stuff like that. But I think, you know, I, I don't do it for that reason. That's not why I do it. But, you know, things are facts. You know, I did those things. You know, I made those things happen. I started those things. And so I feel that, you know, naturally I should get more recognition and different awards and different recognitions and stuff like that, but because I didn't do it for that, you know what I mean? I did it for the glory of God and try to impact these people in the world in my community, that it doesn't bother me at all. [01:18:11] Speaker B: I was gonna ask, what do you want your legacy to be in Canadian basketball? When it's all said and done, would you hang it up officially? [01:18:19] Speaker A: Well, my, my, my. My moniker for Grassroots Elite is the first, the longest running and the most successful AU program. So I, that's when I leave that. This guy was those, those three things, you know, he. He really, he started it. He kept it going through the ups and downs. You know, when different things happen, like Covid and you know, different scenarios happen, he still kept it through and became still remain relevant and he had the most impact of all the coaches and organizations out there, you know, so, you know, to make the standard really high, like the next guy after me, he better do some stuff and a half to get to that level of what I've been able to do, you know. So, you know, I really want to leave at a really high mark. I want to, I want to, like, obviously Michael Jordan is my guy, you know, I mean, I think he's the goat of all goats. And who's second for you? [01:19:19] Speaker B: Who's second? [01:19:20] Speaker A: Kobe. Kobe, yeah. As much, obviously LeBron is the, I think is the most conditioned athlete of all time. Like, that's, you know, but unfortunately those two guys, they got him overall in terms of their impact and, and what he'd be able to do in a short minute of time. So, you know, I want to be like a Michael Jordan of Canadian AU coaches that you always know that, hey, some guys did some things and he did some things but coach Will Russell, man, he's at the top of that food chain like Michael son. [01:19:51] Speaker B: He got them rings. [01:19:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:19:55] Speaker B: If you could give one piece of advice to today's preps coaches, maybe aau, what would that be? When you're talking to them, people hit you up and be like, bro, how could I do this? How could I do that? What's your advice to guys? [01:20:07] Speaker A: Do it for the kids. That's the first thing that comes to mind. Like, a lot of people have stayed in it a couple years, few years, you know, had different motives, which is fine. Take care of yourself. Make sure. Take your family, take yourself, but make sure your number one priority, your number one, you know, goal is to make sure the kids are good. Make sure they get somewhere, they go somewhere. Don't start a program because you get the entry fees and you get the, you know, you know, you look good and you win and all that stuff. But where do the kids go? Make sure the kids go somewhere. So it makes sense, you know, that it's set up right, for the kids to go somewhere. So look out for the kids, the first thing, and do the right thing. Do the right thing. And the last thing would be to, you know, just get along with everyone. You know, I feel like all over, you know, from guys that I coached or guys across the way that I didn't, and they're a competitive program, you know, I'll work with them, I'll say hi to them, you know, I mean, I try not to have any kind of, you know, enemies anywhere, you know what I mean? Because, you know, I really believe that, you know, God said that if you want him to believe you, I mean, if you want him to forgive your sins, you have to forgive and. And move on with other people that you felt wronged you, whatever. So I try to get along with everybody. [01:21:28] Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. [01:21:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:21:30] Speaker B: The Rev. I can't thank you enough for coming out. I know you want the. Anything else you want to plug. I know you mentioned Sonny Vaccaro. [01:21:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:21:37] Speaker B: Prior. Prior to us recording this. [01:21:38] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, Sonny. The. He's. He's like the. The Michael Jordan, the goat of all goats of a you. Like, he started this back in. In the whatever, the 60s or whatever. And he's the one that had ABCD camp and all that stuff. And that's like a renowned camp that no one will ever forget about that camp. And I've heard rumblings that him and Tracy McGrady and Adidas are looking to revive that and get that going again. And that was the camp of all camps. Like, man, you got the ABCD camp, and you were on cloud nine. And he's been great. You know, he's like, 85 now, and, you know, he. He was. He was just great. I can't say. I'll just. I'll just say that there's so much to talk about because we don't have enough time, but Sonny Vaccary was great. Like, he did great things in this world for all people. He touched so much lives. He probably touched the most lives of anybody. He. He has the biggest tree of anyone. You know what I'm saying? Like, he. He whittled down for guys. He worked with their coaches, their players, the NBA players. Like, everything. Like, he was. He was. He was really, really profound in what he did. [01:22:51] Speaker B: Yeah. Shout out to Sonny again, bro. I can't thank you enough for. For coming. Anything else you got going on, people should be on the lookout for. [01:22:59] Speaker A: I. I got something going on, but I can't say right now until it's official. [01:23:03] Speaker B: Okay. Okay. [01:23:04] Speaker A: But I'm always up to something. I never just quit and just, you know, go with the norm. I'm always thinking outside the box, ahead of the curve. There's always something up, you know, to keep it fun and excited and. And stay in that role of being a pioneer and a trendsetter. [01:23:20] Speaker B: Yeah, bro, I can't thank you enough. Like you said, pioneer in this space. [01:23:23] Speaker A: Yeah. The only last thing I say, just for me, the biggest thing that makes me who I am is. Is. Is my Lord and savior, Jesus Christ. You know, my faith in God has really helped me to be, you know, really motivated and to be humble and to, you know, look out for the next man and. And try to impact the world. So I just want to state that that's. [01:23:49] Speaker B: That. [01:23:49] Speaker A: That foremost, that's who I am. That's what I. That's why I do this. [01:23:53] Speaker B: Love that. I can't thank you enough again for coming on. On downtown Toronto, the Canadian basketball show. It's a pleasure. We'll be watching. I'm gonna come out to uchenna game. [01:24:01] Speaker A: Yes, Definitely. Come out. [01:24:02] Speaker B: I'm gonna come watch Jalen. [01:24:03] Speaker A: Yeah, come and watch Jalen and the other guys that we have. Have a good group. And like, this summer, we brought up a D1 coach, I mean, a D1 school that played a game against McMaster University at Uchena. It was the first ever D1 game at a prep school. Yeah. So trying to keep it, you know. [01:24:23] Speaker B: I see Norman Powell was also there recently. [01:24:26] Speaker A: Yes, Norman Powell was there. You know, we had Luca there. Like, you know, we get some guys in that building. You know what I'm saying? I'm gonna come by. More to come. You should come by and see what we got going on. [01:24:35] Speaker B: I'm gonna come check it out this year. But I can't thank you enough again, bro. This has been the Canadian basketball show, your go to spot for the latest news, stories and analysis on Canadian basketball with my guy Russell, Pioneer, the rev. [01:24:46] Speaker A: Yes. [01:24:47] Speaker B: And we out.